[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT UK P3E Lecture HEO vs GEO. and AMSAT-NA Priorities

Tue Aug 12 02:54:50 PDT 2008

Edward:
For the most part, I agree with your analysis, AMSAT-NA just needs to get
that out to the membership for a up/down vote.
It would seem that based on the latest (un-scientific) pole most folks still 
desire an HEO over GEO.

http://app.sgizmo.com/reports/18952/48864/4G6MMZP08F5CHHRFD5IFKRUG0SX47H/

"Eagle -wonderful when we can swing it"   I really don't believe that this 
will
ever happen  if we shift the direction of Eagle to GEO.

I do like the MEO alternative though.

BTW; I'm working on a second retirement.

73's DE Joe K7ZT

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edward Cole" <kl7uw at acsalaska.net>
To: <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:01 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT UK P3E Lecture HEO vs GEO. and AMSAT-NA
Priorities

> And if I may make an even simpler appeal:  I will take any non-FM
> satellite HEO, MEO, or GEO in a time frame that falls within our
> lifetime.  Did I overstate that?
> We know that HEO's take lots of time in design, fabrication,
> space-qualification and financing.  Many hams are getting up there in
> years and may not be able to wait another 10-15 years!
>
> HEO's are great fun and challenge, but a GEO would suffice vs only
> having FM Leos for the next decade.
> If the GEO is more feasible/practical/realistic, bring it on!
>
> If we can sell one with Emcomm capabilities added to our favorite
> modes, why not?  If we wait on this too long, it will be done by the
> commercial sats so they will not need the ham version.  Only hams
> like stuff that is "hard to use" - real world is interested in
> utility (can you hear me now)
>
> Bottom Line:  "Time waits for nobody"
> P3E -great
> Eagle -wonderful when we can swing it
> P4 on Intelsat - don' t miss this ride
>
> I started accumulating "stuff" in 1996 to get on AO-10/13.  1998 got
> my Drake converters for AO-40 and the FT-847.  2000-2008 accumulating
> my stuff for mw's  - is that twelve years?  I will retire in 2011.  I
> hope there is a satellite up there soon!
>
> At 06:33 PM 8/11/2008, John B. Stephensen wrote:
>>Hi Joe,
>>
>>The Eagle ride-share requires no engine from AMSAT as it is supplied by
>>and
>>operated by Intelsat. They have an order of magnitude more experience than
>>any AMSAT organization and a better track record. It also eliminates more
>>than half of the work in building the satellite. That has to reduce risk.
>>
>>AMSAT-NA members are working on P3E and AMSAT-NA has supplied money for
>>the
>>project so I don't see a lack of support.
>>
>>Since a HEO and GEO are at similar altitudes, I don't forsee a big
>>difference in signal strength. The only disadvantage of a GEO for hams is
>>that it doesn't move so I can't work India from here as I could on AO-13.
>>However, Molniya orbits aren't very useful to outside funders so there is
>>an
>>advantage in raising funds. Making satellites hard to use certainly
>>doesn't
>>help in rasing money. The aspect of AO-40 that QST pushed during
>>fund-rasing
>>was that it would be easier to use than AO-13.
>>
>>73,
>>
>>John
>>KD6OZH
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Joe Westbrook" <k7zt at suddenlink.net>
>>To: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh at comcast.net>; <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>>Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 22:06 UTC
>>Subject: AMSAT UK P3E Lecture HEO vs GEO. and AMSAT-NA Priorities
>>
>>
>> > John:
>> > So regarding risk, how many HEO Satellites has AMSAT-NA launched that
>> > required firing a rocket motor to achieve a Molniya Orbit?
>> > It seems that AMSAT-DL has the lead on that front, additionally, the
>> > gentleman that did the PE3 Presentation at the AMSAT-UK Symposium
>> > indicated
>> > that PE3 uses the same platform as AO10 and AO13, and has been tested.
>> > At
>> > least we have a more predictable risk.  I took a look at the Satellite
>> > history and it appears that the HEO Flights were all joint ventures
>> > with
>> > AMSAT-NA and AMSAT-DL.  I recall a great deal of publicity in QST
>> > surrounding the AO40 launch including fund raising activities. Why
>> > don't
>> > we
>> > observe the same level of commitment that we had for those projects
>> > from
>> > AMSAT-NA Leadership?.
>> >
>> > AO40 provided extraordinary opportunities for the satellite
>> > experimenter,
>> > it
>> > wasn't that difficult and was great deal of fun. Additionally, it did
>> > push
>> > the operator to work on improving their station for weak signal work.
>> > Remember all of the great AO40 how to web sites that popped up?
>> > Lots of home brew projects! Lots of pictures of stations!
>> > How many of those are out there for AO51?
>> >
>> > I believe for those who endeavored to develop hardware and software
>> > definitely
>> > furthered the science.   I constructed many different antennas and
>> > feeds
>> > learned a
>> > great deal all in my back yard with minimal investment using "arm
>> > strong"
>> > , home-brew az-el  set up.
>> >
>> > Regarding GEO vs. HEO, I would argue that in terms of the overall
>> > experience, there are significant differences that boil down to the
>> > following::
>> > 1.  GEO isn't a moving target
>> > 2.  HEO has a weaker signal
>> > 3.  With GEO, the antenna is locked down to a fixed Az-EL. No Doppler,
>> > no
>> > need to synchronize the orbit or to integrate software applications.
>> >
>> > I would challenge you to tell me how GEO wouldn't be an appliance.
>> > What's
>> > left
>> > once you mount your Downconverter, feed, LNA, etc, bring it to your
>> > xcvr,
>> > short of tuning across the transponder to find a clear frequency to
>> > call
>> > CQ,
>> > or to locate a contact what's left to do?  I agree that GEO would be
>> > great
>> > for emergencies, nets, and long rag chews on what  will be extremely
>> > crowded xponder space.
>> > Additionally, I think that you would agree that the skill level and
>> > overall experience is diminished. But
>> > that's just me.
>> >
>> > All I'm saying is allow the membership vote on how AMSAT-NA resources
>> > should
>> > be used, I don't mean to suggest we vote on the type of RX to use, but
>> > on
>> > the overall project.
>> > It is my belief that most members wouldn't want resources diverted to a
>> > GEO Project before an HEO Project is fully deployed.
>> > If we loose sight of the main goal, this process could go on for years.
>> > To be successful, AMSAT-NA needs a narrow focus as it has very little
>> > in
>> > the way of resources, both human and financial.
>> >
>> > I would be satisfied if AMSAT-NA would simply articulate a clear set of
>> > goals and priorities, hell even use the survey that was accomplished in
>> > 04.
>> > Communicate these goals to the members at large and finally stand by
>> > them.
>> > If at the end of the day those goals are not what the members want,
>> > then
>> > they can vote with their wallets.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > - Joe K7ZT
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh at comcast.net>
>> > To: "Joe Westbrook" <k7zt at suddenlink.net>; "Luc Leblanc"
>> > <lucleblanc6 at videotron.ca>; <eu-amsat at yahoogroups.com>
>> > Cc: <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>> > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:12 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: [eu-amsat] AMSAT UK P3E Lecture Available
>> >
>> >
>> >> Since AMSAT-DL and AMSAT-NA both require funding from outside the
>> >> amateur
>> >> radio community, are going after different sources of funding, and
>> >> neither
>> >> can predict when they will get that funding, having two efforts would
>> >> seem
>> >> to double the opportunity for a non-LEO satellite.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think that the risk decreases with P3E. 50% of P3 satellites
>> >> were
>> >> lost due to failures of engines in the launch vehicle or in the
>> >> satellite.
>> >>
>> >> I don't see how having a linear transponder in a geostationary orbit
>> >> versus a Molniya orbit makes it an appliance satellite. The antennas
>> >> and
>> >> transceivers on ground are the same in either case.
>> >>
>> >> 73,
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >> KD6OZH
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "Joe Westbrook" <k7zt at suddenlink.net>
>> >> To: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh at comcast.net>; "Luc Leblanc"
>> >> <lucleblanc6 at videotron.ca>; <eu-amsat at yahoogroups.com>
>> >> Cc: <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 16:32 UTC
>> >> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [eu-amsat] AMSAT UK P3E Lecture Available
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> John:
>> >>> Yes, you may have heard statements like in the past we've relied on
>> >>> charity,
>> >>> and Amateur Radio Operators alone can not fund a launch, what you
>> >>> haven't
>> >>> heard are any solutions for launching any HEOs.  It seems that the DL
>> >>> folks
>> >>> haven't lost that as a focus, they acknowledge that as expensive as
>> >>> it
>> >>> is
>> >>> to
>> >>> launch an HEO, it is still doable. 3 - 4M Euros $4 - 5M at least they
>> >>> gave
>> >>> us a tangible figure we can work with.  This amount may be a reach
>> >>> for
>> >>> AMSAT-NA alone, but given that we finally understand what it would
>> >>> take
>> >>> to
>> >>> make a HEO Launch reality, then why wouldn't we shift ALL funding
>> >>> toward
>> >>> that effort?    Following the PE3 launch, if  any surplus remains,
>> >>> the
>> >>> surplus could be transferred to the next HEO opportunity (Eagle).  If
>> >>> no
>> >>> surplus remains then at least we would have one working HEO deployed.
>> >>>
>> >>> Additionally, at least we know the PE3 platform is well vetted, and
>> >>> would
>> >>> have the lowest risk.  Rather than spending time and resources on a
>> >>> new,
>> >>> untested platform why wouldn't we just facilitate PE3 FIRST?
>> >>>
>> >>> Ok, I'll speech for myself here, but the GEO ride-share simply isn't
>> >>> an
>> >>> opportunity that will interest the HEO crowd.  Launching an appliance
>> >>> to
>> >>> serve the disaster response community and entry level satellite users
>> >>> won't
>> >>> do a thing to satisfy the need for a HEO.  I don't care if it's free,
>> >>> like
>> >>> AO51, I would probably get on it, make a couple contacts say "that's
>> >>> nice"
>> >>> and be done with it.  Please understand, I'm not saying to abandon
>> >>> GEO
>> >>> as
>> >>> a
>> >>> viable option, just don't spend a cent on it until we launch an HEO.
>> >>>
>> >>> What we need is a satellite that enables the real sprit and intent of
>> >>> the
>> >>> Amateur Radio Service, to push the envelop of the technology, allow
>> >>> for
>> >>> experimentation, consider all of the alternative antenna solutions
>> >>> that
>> >>> our
>> >>> resourceful community developed to receive the 2.4Gig Down Link. No
>> >>> rotator
>> >>> required, different feed systems, a fairly modest resource outlay to
>> >>> get
>> >>> on
>> >>> the air.  I did it with a totally home brewed system in a restricted
>> >>> neighborhood back yard. Had a blast and learned allot.
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: "John B. Stephensen" <kd6ozh at comcast.net>
>> >>> To: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6 at videotron.ca>;
>> >>> <eu-amsat at yahoogroups.com>
>> >>> Cc: <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>> >>> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 3:14 PM
>> >>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [eu-amsat] AMSAT UK P3E Lecture Available
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> I've been hearing these two statments from AMSAT-NA officals for at
>> >>>> least
>> >>>> 2
>> >>>> years -- in person and on this BB.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 73,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> John
>> >>>> KD6OZH
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> From: "Luc Leblanc" <lucleblanc6 at videotron.ca>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Very nice presentations. One attract my attention was made by Peter
>> >>>>> Guelzow DB2OS one one of his slide we can read:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> ATTRACTIVENESS OF AMATEUR RADIO HAS DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> FUNDING A SATELLITE FROM AMATEUR RESSOURCES ALONE NEVER WORKED
>> >>>>> BEFORE
>> >>>>> AND
>> >>>>> WILL NOT WORK NOW.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't how to explain how all the wisdom and reality knowledge
>> >>>>> seems
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> be concentrated in Europe when speaking about amateur satellite?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> >>>> author.
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>> >>>> program!
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>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the
>> >>> author.
>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> >>> program!
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>> >>
>> >
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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