[amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me

Sun Oct 25 17:38:12 PDT 2009

Greg, the same rules apply to Universities (even our military schools, 
ie. West Point el al.). This continues to be a real sore spot with 
University research programs on things related to satellites or any of 
the areas subject to ITAR. It's get especially tricky when students, 
which are foreign nationals, try to become involved.

But, as I keep saying, if you're involved with "munitions" controlled by 
ITAR and many things related to satellites are, them become familiar 
with the rules and follow them. If your in doubt, them become familiar 
with the rules and follow them.

Regards...Bill - N6GHz

Greg D. wrote:
> I wonder if we could hook up with a university somewhere?  Become part 
> of their graduate program in Astro-something, even get some graduate 
> students to help with the design and manufacture...  What sort of 
> restrictions do they have on the definition of a "student"? 
> 
> Just a thought,
> 
> Greg  KO6TH
> 
> 
>  > Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 12:14:38 -0700
>  > From: bill at hsmicrowave.com
>  > To: tosca005 at tc.umn.edu
>  > CC: amsat-bb at amsat.org
>  > Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: ITAR is interesting to me
>  >
>  > Hi John,
>  >
>  > The completed satellite is usually exempt. This is how AO-51, as a
>  > completed satellite, went to Russia and was launched on a Dnepr. AMSAT
>  > has in the past and will in the future, apply for an export license for
>  > a satellite. It's when you try to export satellite components or
>  > technology, like the IHU, the SDX for the P3E, or engage in dialog
>  > regarding a satellites thermal performance the the AMSAT-DL folks to
>  > assist them, that you run afoul of ITAR.
>  >
>  > There's a big different between sharing technology and components than
>  > it is to export a complete satellite for launch. Often the State Dept.
>  > will require that a representative(s) of the satellite builders (and
>  > sometimes the State Dept. itself) accompany the satellite at all times,
>  > insuring that no one can get a closer look than just the outside, right
>  > through the launch.
>  >
>  > Yes, a bit confusing and frustrating, but workable.
>  >
>  > Regards...Bill - N6GHz
>  >
>  > John P. Toscano wrote:
>  > > Bob McGwier wrote:
>  > >> ANY aspect dealing with a satellite, software, hardware, ground 
> stations
>  > >> (hardware, software, protocols, etc.), ideas, random ejaculations 
> from a
>  > >> diseased mind or whatever that deals with spacecraft or ground 
> stations
>  > >> are DEEMED EXPORTS when they depart a U.S. citizen and are 
> delivered to
>  > >> a non-U.S. citizen. It is a nearly impossible task to abide by and 
> one
>  > >> that really makes me want to throw my hands up in despair and walk 
> away.
>  > >>
>  > >> There are exceptions for classrooms and courses taught in U.S.
>  > >> university's. A person, even a non-U.S. citizen, who can pay for 
> taking
>  > >> a course, may go and involve themselves in course work, even if it is
>  > >> dealing with the design, construction, and control of spacecraft 
> during
>  > >> the course work. Some of this applies to your earlier questions 
> but for
>  > >> US service academies, there are very few non-U.S. citizens in them.
>  > >
>  > > Bob:
>  > >
>  > > I would not dream of second-guessing you for a moment, since you are
>  > > fully engaged in this stuff and I am simply an interested observer.
>  > >
>  > > However, why doesn't the following quotation directly from the ITAR
>  > > regulations provide the exemption we need? The quotation comes from 
> the
>  > > section that defines what are the items that are covered by ITAR:
>  > >
>  > > ITAR Part 121 - The United States Munitions List
>  > >
>  > > -----------------------< begin quote >-------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Category XV - Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment
>  > >
>  > > *(a) Spacecraft, including communications satellites, remote sensing
>  > > satellites, scientific satellites, research satellites, navigation
>  > > satellites, experimental and multi-mission satellites.
>  > >
>  > > *NOTE TO PARAGRAPH (a): Commercial communications satellites, 
> scientific
>  > > satellites, research satellites, and experimental satellites are
>  > > designated as SME only when the equipment is intended for use by the
>  > > armed forces of any foreign country.
>  > >
>  > > -----------------------< end quote >---------------------------------
>  > >
>  > > Note that SME refers to "Significant Military Equipment"
>  > >
>  > > Paragraph (a) seems to cover everything and anything having to do with
>  > > satellites, but the asterisk and "NOTE" attached to it seems to say 
> that
>  > > an Amateur radio satellite for use by Amateurs instead of foreign 
> armed
>  > > forces should be exempted, doesn't it?
>  > >
>  > > Granted, I realize that we have already lost one argument with ITAR
>  > > about our past cooperation with AMSAT-DL, but is there some compelling
>  > > reason why the lawyers didn't point out this exception?
>  > >
>  > > Just wondering...
>  > > If I had to guess the answer myself, after looking at the horribly
>  > > convoluted language of the small piece of the ITAR regulations that I
>  > > have looked at, there is probably another paragraph elsewhere that
>  > > effectively says, "we were just kidding when we said that it had to be
>  > > used by foreign armed forces, we really mean it to cover everything"
>  > >
>  > > John
>  > > W0JT
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
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> author.
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>  > >
>  >
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