[amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for Beginning and Experienced Operators

Thu Dec 14 00:22:45 UTC 2017

I have several more comments.

I do think Sean's draft is reasonable.  I'd hesitate to say it ought to 
have force of law (and indeed, it is likely unenforceable in any event) 
because there's no one absolute "right" way to operate, other than 
what's laid out in FCC regulations. Certainly, one of the reasons I've 
never been a grid chaser is that I've simply been working too much at my 
job to spend the time doing it.  Now that I am retired, I have been 
devoting more time to ham radio, and indeed, am taking steps to upgrade 
my satellite operating position (primarily automating tracking and 
auto-adjusting for doppler).  But, the fact that I operated in small 
spurts on the satellites for years before retirement leads to one of my 
concerns about always stepping aside for "DX grids". Many on here have 
commented that other passes will occur for people who aren't interested 
in the grid chase.  For me, that one or two passes available on a 
Saturday were usually the only passes I had available to me, regardless 
of whether someone was on there with a rare grid (I don't /think/ I've 
ever been a lid and stepped on someone during a pass but it could have 
happened).  So, what is the response to folks who don't have the 
opportunity to get on for multiple passes of a bird in a short period of 
time? What do you say to the newbie who is on for maybe the 4th or 5th 
time, from a very non-rare grid and just wants to make some contacts?  
In asking the questions, I don't mean to say (as I stated earlier on 
this thread) that people never have to step aside for grid chasers.  I'm 
only trying to show that it's not so easy for everyone as has been inferred.

Another comment I have is a fairly narrow concern that arose during the 
course of this thread.  Some commenters have suggested that some folks 
shouldn't express their opinions because they don't show up in enough 
logbooks.  This kind of attitude, at least to me, seems to reinforce the 
idea that a commentator made regarding the satellite community being 
somewhat closed off. Although experienced satellite operators' opinions 
should certainly be given weight, the opinion of someone who doesn't 
show up in enough logs but has expressed an interest in satellites and 
is a dues-paying AMSAT member shouldn't be ignored merely on that 
basis.  After all, as another commenttator noted, it's not necessarily 
easy to get people to get into satellite operation and I'd hate to see 
new folks turned off by a cliquish attitude. Please understand that I'm 
not pointing fingers, but am just suggesting that all reasonable 
opinions need to be heard.  I practiced law for 38 years, and I used to 
get some of my best ideas for my cases from my lay-clients.  We need to 
listen because we don't know where the next good idea is going to originate.

That said, I had a lot of fun yesterday, turning on my satellite rig, 
hearing voices immediately, and realizing that my antenna array was 
pointing directly at AO-91 just a couple of minutes before LOS.  Before 
it sunk below the horizon, I was able to work WD9EWK who was roving in a 
(I believe but don't know for sure because I can't tell which grid is 
which off the top of my head) not particularly active grid in Arizona.  
I've now worked Pat on about 5 different satellites over a number of 
years and I appreciate getting to work him on so many different birds 
(anyone remember AO-27?  I worked Pat on that bird in 2006).  After 
AO-91 dipped below the horizon, I looked at my tracking program and 
realized that I was in AO-7's footprint.  I was able to work two SSB 
stations and one CW station throughout the rest of that pass. It's a 
hoot to work sophisticated satellites with a mode (CW) that lay people 
think is antiquated.

I say this just to try and tell you all that I truly love this hobby 
(especially the satellite aspect), and I have a lot of fun with it.  
That's why I care so much about this discussion.

73 de Bernie, KF0QS

On 12/13/2017 3:00 PM, kb2mjeff at att.net wrote:
> There are two things that are  sad about all of this is...
>  The discussion about the FM satellites has been going on for as long 
> as I've been working the sats, coming up on 30 years. Geez am I 
> getting old. It will never change. What happens is as the newness of 
> AO-91 wears off it will settle down. it always does Let's all be patient.
>  The second thing is I wouldn't even be involved in this discussion, I 
> know better but I elmered my good friend Russ kl1nk today on two 
> passes of AO-91. The first pass low over the Caribbean went well, he 
> made two contacts, the second high pass over the US was a disaster. He 
> didn't make a single contact, as far as I can tell he wasn't even 
> heard. He could not believe what a mess it was. I told him the SSB 
> satellites were much more relaxed, but being retired on a fixed 
> income, I don't think he has the money to invest in the required 
> equipment. Trying to get new people interested in sat operation is a 
> very hard sell. I had to almost beg him to take my Arrow antenna I 
> loaned him home to work on it. Back to the linear birds for me :-)
>
> 73 Jeff kb2m
>
> -----Original Message----- From: R.T.Liddy
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 4:30 PM
> To: AMSAT BB
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for 
> Beginning and Experienced Operators
>
> KG5JUP,
>
> The AMSAT BB is open to all & no membership/dues required.
>
> Anyone can comment on whatever is posted on it, which you did.
>
> Someone volunteered their time to summarize what many folks feel
> are good operating procedures. Without guidelines, there would
> continue to be the chaos on the FM Satellites that has been seen.
>
> New people should appreciate having guidance on how to operate
> on a shared resource. Otherwise, they merely contribute to the chaos.
>
> FYI, there is no voting on a volunteered set of guidelines. You either
> follow them or you don't. They aren't Rules.
>
> You could have suggested a rewording of portions of the guidelines
> and asked for discussion and a reissue. Instead, you inferred that the
> SATs are being controlled by only certain individuals and they are
> whiners.
>
> Now, why don't you tell the users here what you feel should be different
> in those guidelines based on your experience and observations. Then,
> people can comment on the pros and cons of your ideas. Perhaps, the
> guidelines can be improved.
>
> TNX/73,     Bob  K8BL
>
> P.S. Please sign your posts with your Name/Call so we know who you are.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: kg5jup <kg5jup at gmail.com>
> To: R.T.Liddy <k8bl at ameritech.net>; AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 3:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for 
> Beginning and Experienced Operators
>
>
>
> Hello there!  I am one of the ones you speak of and my only issue was 
> how the suvesstions were presented and that someone can just post to 
> AMSAT site with out a vote or discussion.
>
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "R.T.Liddy" <k8bl at ameritech.net>
> Date: 12/13/17  12:20  (GMT-06:00)
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
>  Beginning and Experienced Operators
>
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for the good words about the reality of SAT operations.
>
> Apparently, some people do not appreciate DX and/or Roving
> or Gridding QSOs on our Satellites. They don't realize or care
> that there is a LOT of time and expense involved with providing
> these contacts for other SAT users from rare locations.
>
> Amazingly, it seems that some of the vocal folks are objecting
> to being reminded to use courtesy when the resources are busy
> with highly sought stations. There are very many SAT passes that
> are not busy at all. Is it that inconvenient to use those passes?
>
> Even more amazing is that it has been pointed out that some of
> the objectors haven't been actual users of the Satellites. One would
> wonder why they are voicing objections in the first place.
>
> Our hobby often has a problem getting folks to volunteer to do
> some of the needed tasks that we all would benefit from. Then, when
> someone steps forward to help with a needed task (writing an Operating
> Practice) there are folks that do nothing but complain about what that
> volunteer actually does! Go figure!!!
>
> 73 & Merry Christmas to ALL!!!  de Bob K8BL  (AMSAT #6593)
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 12:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for 
> Beginning and Experienced Operators
>
>
>
> Christopher,
>
>
> I ask you the same question I asked another earlier in this thread: Do 
> you
>
> actually operate on the Amateur Satellites? I have checked my logs, and I
>
> don't see you in them with your KG5JUP or your AA5EM call sign. Not 
> saying
>
> it's possible I could have missed you, but 5000 logged AMSAT QSOs since
>
> 2014 and you're not in them makes a fairly compelling case. Sean is not
>
> trying pass a law by tyrannical decree here, he is an active operator who
>
> has made a lot of contacts and been on both the chasing side and the DX
>
> side of the QSO. He made a list of suggested guidelines based on his (and
>
> other active ops) experiences, and he did a bang up job with it too.  If
>
> that rustles your jimmies too much, then maybe you should re-evaluate 
> what
>
> you're expecting by belonging to an organization like AMSAT.
>
>
> Also - for those that have been around since before AO-91 - please go 
> back
>
> and reference the K0D operation I did with AC0RA last month. We activated
>
> 20 rares grids thru the Western Dakotas in 3 days. We only got on 3 FM
>
> passes the entire trip. I got a lot of flack from FM only operators for
>
> avoiding the repeater birds - but this thread is proof positive of 
> exactly
>
> why we did it that way. If folks get upset over asking for some courtesy
>
> towards the rovers out there busting their tail off, that's fine. I 
> for one
>
> am done chasing grids now that I've got my 488 confirmed - and plan to 
> put
>
> some serious effort into roving the next few years. I'm happy to stick to
>
> the linear birds only when on the road, if treating AO91 "like the extra
>
> class" causes people to go to their safe spaces.
>
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 6:45 AM, kg5jup <kg5jup at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>
>> I am a little disturbed that these ideas were just published no vote not
>
>> input.  I am a paying member I had no input.  Honest feel like a 
>> handful of
>
>> individuals who want to treat the birds like the extra class band when
>
>> convent and whine when they don't get their way.
>
>>
>
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note8, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
>
>> -------- Original message --------From: "Sean K. via AMSAT-BB" <
>
>> amsat-bb at amsat.org> Date: 12/12/17 21:48  (GMT-06:00) To: Sean Waite <
>
>> waisean at gmail.com>, AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org> Subject: Re: 
>> [amsat-bb]
>
>> FM Satellites: Good Operating Practices for
>
>>   Beginning and Experienced Operators
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