[amsat-bb] doppler shift

Fri Jan 5 08:14:33 UTC 2018

Hi Greg,

Great idea! Good for that next step up.

The point of "who can hear it the loudest" is exactly that. It's subjective,
unmeasurable, and therefore doesn't make any one scout feel like they
weren't good enough. And for a beginner, or someone who can't hear callsigns
in SSB very well, it's a lot less stressful and difficult to say "look, I
can hear the voices" than "I've spotted KO6TH, K6CCC and M1ACB". Once
they're a bit more experienced, then you step it up a notch or two, but
right at the start, "I can hear it" or "I can't hear it" or somewhere in
between is more than enough to encourage that competitive spirit and get
them going!

73, and a firm left handshake,
John (XLX)

-----Original Message-----
From: Greg D [mailto:ko6th.greg at gmail.com] 
Sent: 04 January 2018 21:25
To: Nick Hart <nickhart at usa.net>; John <john at amber.org.uk>
Cc: amsat-bb at amsat.org
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift

Following the "contest" approach, perhaps set up teams of a couple of kids,
each with a radio and hand-held beam, and see who can copy the most number
of call signs.  As preparation, you'd need to explain a whole lot of stuff -
what a bandpass is, what the track of the bird is through the sky, doppler
shift, etc, etc, etc.  Then they can put it to practice.

A goal of loudest, or such, is kind of subjective; how would you really
measure it?  Number of call signs, I think, would be simple and cause nearly
all of the challenges we face in operating to come into play, without being
so horrible that copying one call wouldn't be beyond reach.  So everyone
would have some success and feeling of accomplishment, but still have a
competition and a winner.

Just a thought,

Greg  KO6TH

Nick Hart wrote:
> How exciting it must have been to get a great demo with such a large
group.
>
> Excellent advice, John. I like the competition idea very much, which 
> is why I had them with 2 separate rigs.
>
> A long time ago, when I used to teach Sunday school, we used a 
> guideline that a kid's attention span is their age in minutes.  I've 
> got 10 to 14 year olds, so we'll keep it moving from activity to activity
that they can handle.
>
> (My own theory is that after a certain age, ones attention span starts 
> working its way back down.)
>
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Thu, 04 Jan 2018 11:46:38 AM PST
> From: "John" <john at amber.org.uk>
> To: "'Nick Hart'" <nickhart at usa.net>Cc: <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] doppler shift
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> It all depends on the knowledge and skillset of the scouts in 
> question. My last significant AMSAT demo was done during JOTA, and at 
> that point we had between 100 and 150 young people come through the 
> shack doors throughout the weekend. We didn't have a huge amount of 
> time to explain everything or go really interactive with the control 
> or tracking, and to be honest most of them were amazed enough that 
> they could hear voices coming back from space, so when we listened in 
> to one of the Italian ARISS contacts, they were even more thrilled! My 
> trusty FT-847, SatPC32, ERC-M interface and Kenpro KR5600 did the job 
> nicely, we made quite a few QSOs, and we got to listen to a full ISS 
> pass - something the 80 odd people who poured into the shack when it
started will likely not forget for a long time yet.
>
> If your group of scouts is at a level where they've got the 
> understanding, accuracy and, most importantly, the concentration to 
> follow the full pass, then there's no reason not to try it manually 
> with them. If, however, they're less experienced/interested/accurate, 
> then you might find that it's hard to keep them all doing their 
> respective jobs at once. Remember that there's only one of you trying 
> to manage four different teams at that point, so how far you can 
> stretch yourself is another consideration. Especially if your primary
focus is on the actual operation of the QSO.
>
> If you want to demonstrate that it can be done on a budget, get them 
> to bring those tape-measure yagis they built with them. Hook up a 
> couple of handhelds or FT817s to them, and demonstrate an FM bird 
> (AO-91, SO-50, or
> similar?) for the simplest approach. Then step up the game a bit, 
> adding a little more challenge. Even if you just listen during the 
> first pass or two, you'll see the thrill they'll get from knowing it's 
> working with the yagis they built themselves at the last club meeting, 
> and that's where you can gauge whether they are ready to step it up. 
> If you want to add a bit more 'competition' to it, then have them run 
> the yagis and handhelds alongside a full auto-tracking station and see if
they can 'match' it (or even 'beat'
> it). Never underestimate the power of some healthy competition - give 
> 4 teams identical sets of gear, show them where to point, and you'll 
> find that they're competing to see who can hear the satellite the loudest
in no time.
> If, however, you want some successful QSOs, then it's worth having a 
> back-up plan that you can roll out if you aren't getting success.
>
> One of the biggest things I've found in the past with demonstrations 
> is that whilst the latest and greatest kit isn't necessary, having a 
> decent setup that's hassle-free and 'just works' can bail you out of a 
> huge hole. We found the same thing with HF a few years ago - whilst 
> you can theoretically make that QSO to the opposite side of the planet 
> on 1W with a wet piece of string up a tree in the right conditions, 
> it's a lot easier to put on a successful demonstration with an 8 
> element HF beam at 80 feet on a tower, plenty of TX power and a radio 
> with an excellent receiver. And very often the quality is what will
determine whether or not you keep the interest.
> Making them work for that contact is all well and good, but sometimes 
> instant gratification is better for the uninitiated or more casual folk.
>
> There's no hard and fast formula for what will or won't work. You 
> gotta read your audience, respond to it, and work from there. If you 
> can see they're getting more and more into it, then teach them a bit 
> more, and add to the level of work they have to do to make the pass 
> happen. As a wise scouter once said to me, many years ago (when 
> talking about campfire songs, but the principle applies to this too): 
> If you're drilling for oil, and you don't strike it within the first
couple of minutes... stop boring!
>
> In short (or long, as it seems to have become)... See what works for 
> you, but plan to start simple and work upwards! You know your young 
> people better than I do, so assess their capabilities and challenge 
> them, whilst staying within those capabilities.
>
> 73, and a firm left handshake,
> John (XLX)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Hart [mailto:nickhart at usa.net]
> Sent: 04 January 2018 19:16
> To: John <john at amber.org.uk>
> Cc: jim at k6ccc.org; amsat-bb at amsat.org
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift
>
> I'm glad you mentioned scouts, John. 
>
> I counsel for the radio merit badge for our local scouts, and Elmer 
> our local middle school's radio club. In the club last month, we 
> completed tape measure yagis. And, for this month's radio club 
> meeting, I was planning on having the kids working a couple of birds
passing during the meeting time.
>
> I figured that with 10 kids, we could have them in teams for tracking, 
> tuning, recording and operating under my supervision. I thought it 
> would be good for them to try to do everything manually once for two 
> reasons. One is to show that's it's doable on a minimum budget by a 
> teenager. And, the other is so they'll have an appreciation of 
> everything our more automated rig will do during our ARISS QSO in March.
>
> From your comments, I'm rethinking that strategy a bit. Do you think 
> that's too much?
>
> 73!
>
> Nick
>
>> On Jan 4, 2018, at 9:57 AM, John <john at amber.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hey now, don't shoot the messenger! The vast majority of my AMSAT 
>> demonstrations are done with groups of scouts of various ages, and 
>> the last thing they need to see is me focussing more on the radio 
>> than making sure they understand what's going on!
>>
>> If I've got a piece of software that can correct for doppler shift 
>> for me, and it can manage pointing my antennas in the right 
>> direction, then it leaves my focus available for the actual 
>> operating, and the explanations to the young people who could well be 
>> the next generation of amateur radio and AMSAT enthusiasts ;) I think 
>> that's a far better use of my resources than sitting there with my 
>> back to the people I'm supposed to be introducing to the hobby, and 
>> focussing on turning dials and pushing rotator controller buttons...
>>
>> John (XLX)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org] On Behalf Of 
>> jim at k6ccc.org
>> Sent: 04 January 2018 17:46
>> To: amsat-bb at amsat.org
>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift
>>
>>
>>
>> Ya know, you could MANUALLY tune.  It does work.  In fact I strongly 
>> preferred manually tuning for doppler shift vs computer corrected.
>>
>> Jim
>> K6CCC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "John" <john at amber.org.uk>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 02:10
>> To: "'Dave L'" <kb0rfy at q.com>, amsat-bb at amsat.org
>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] doppler shift
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> When you say your doppler is too far ahead or behind, do you actually 
>> mean your overall frequency, or do you mean your split distance?
>>
>> If you mean your overall frequency then that's really odd, as SatPC32 
>> has always put me smack bang in the middle of the pass-band if using 
>> linears (with the correct locator set on login). If this isn't the 
>> case you can adjust it in the settings files, but it's generally 
>> calculated based on your locator and the Keplerian data you can 
>> download (and should be updating every time you open up the app). If, 
>> however, you mean your offset (ie finding your own downlink) then 
>> this is always a bit variable for me, but usually pretty close.
>>
>> SatPC32 does, in my experience, remember your offsets when you adjust 
>> them (in my case either with the + and - buttons, or the pot at the 
>> top right of the rig), so that next time you hit that satellite it 
>> keeps the same offsets. You may find your offset is slightly 
>> different on different passes, or you may find it's exact every time, 
>> but that's part of the fun with linears - finding yourself first!
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>>
>> 73,
>> John (XLX)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: AMSAT-BB [mailto:amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org] On Behalf Of Dave 
>> L
>> Sent: 03 January 2018 23:32
>> To: amsat-bb at amsat.org
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] doppler shift
>>
>> I'm useing satpc and a Yaesu ft-847.
>>
>> Fm birds are not a problem. SSB I'm either to far ahead or behind.
>>
>> Any hints or advice would be appreciated.
>>
>> radio and ant are comp controled
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> dave
>>
>> kb0rfy
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect 
>> the
> official views of AMSAT-NA.
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available 
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. 
> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
official views of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: http://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb