[amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US

Thu Aug 22 15:43:13 UTC 2019

The idea originally came from FEMA and ARRL. It has been presented at
Symposium at least twice.

As a former EMT, I have used a variety emergency communications equipment
for drills and duty. I got all the ICS certifications and listened to lots
and lots of schemes, proposals, and marketing from all the usual suspects,
went to classes for CEUs where strange things were recommended that would
never work, and did things that were essentially hacks with equipment that
should have been retired before I was born. My views on emcomm are
conservative and largely immaterial. If FEMA is interested in this, then
finding out if it works is worth my time.

No AMSAT resources (e.g. money) are being asked for or are needed for this.
It can only help AMSAT if it works, but if it doesn't, there's no harm done
to the club. We're supposed to experiment and advance the radio arts. We
need to understand what it means to rent transponder space.

When companies that are motivated to support amateur radio step up and do,
the least we can do is listen, weigh, consider, and take them up on it if
it looks like it would result in something positive. I believe this is one
of those opportunities, and I'm willing to do the due diligence and see how
far we can get.

In short, It is both/and, not either/or.

-Michelle W5NYV

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:22 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:

> The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but that
> segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety spectrum as
> well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your 'backbone' you could
> very easily establish a somewhat respectable packet link and then just have
> your "Aggregator" be nothing more than a wifi hotspot, which opens up all
> sorts of communication applications beyond simple push button HTs. If
> you're truly looking at this from an EMCOMM perspective, then the primary
> goal of the ESF-2 annex is 'communications infrastructure restoration' -
> which is ranked higher than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw
> with sending people with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican
> case with a dish and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5
> minutes?
>
> Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other than
> solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely zero
> benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their scarce
> resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact made thru
> this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks interested in that
> sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be required of the 'users'
> of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency the
> Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would benefit from
> such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves, and possibly the
> public - and I say possibly because commercial systems like your proposal
> already exist and are in common use by organizations that respond to
> disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can rent a basic Inmarsat turn key
> solution, take it anywhere on the planet, and let any of the workers I'm
> supporting send and receive emails while I do something productive towards
> saving lives instead of mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
>
> The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting to
> build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to help
> re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once the cell
> phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap about our
> radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m dish and portable
> tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for Ham in disasters these
> days is the basic idea that our gear can establish communications without
> some sort of proprietary middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be
> happy to send you my graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of
> Geo-Synchronous Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications
> for our hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that I
> (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly and
> I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT could
> probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual* amateur
> satellites.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Grrrr..
> > Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped !
> > We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
> >
> > Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
> >
> > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
> > nodes.
> > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the satellite.
> > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF distance
> > constraints.
> > Still an Emcomm use here.
> >
> > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into the
> > aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use Skype,
> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
> > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
> > A R&D use here.
> >
> > KC9SGV
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV <kc9sgv at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into Echolink
> > nodes.
> > > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
> satellite.
> > > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
> > distance constraints.
> > > Still an Emcomm use here.
> > >
> > > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go into
> > the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use
> Skype,
> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
> > > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free RCForb
> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
> > > A R&D use here.
> > > Like this :
> > > <image1.PNG>
> > >
> > >
> > > Bernard,
> > > KC9SGV
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ev,
> > >>
> > >> But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the
> uplink
> > is outside of the amateur bands.  So the aggregator must send everything
> to
> > an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
> > >>
> > >> Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
> > transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
> > >>
> > >> Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the
> commercial
> > earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby
> decreasing
> > the encomm utility of this effort.
> > >>
> > >> Sancho
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
> > >>> On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Michelle,
> > >>> What a fascinating opportunity.  I'd like to try to describe this
> > using different words to see if I get it.
> > >>> Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum to
> > sell.
> > >>> Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands.
> > >>> To use it, an aggregator is needed.  An aggregator is a "bridge"
> > device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and setellite
> > downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
> > >>> Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator.  It is the
> > aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
> > >>>
> > >>> The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB, CW,
> > PSK31, etc.) modes.
> > >>> Is this right?
> > >>> Regards,Ev, W2EV
> > >>>
> > >>>    On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle Thompson
> > via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4 years
> of
> > >>> USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others to
> > pay for
> > >>> at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback already.
> I
> > >>> think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
> > willing to
> > >>> provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing needs
> to
> > >>> happen to secure a grant for rental.
> > >>>
> > >>> The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
> > deployment
> > >>> of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP (Amateur
> > Radio
> > >>> Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM or
> > analog
> > >>> gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then sent
> > to a
> > >>> satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot of
> > >>> interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground needs an
> > ARAP in
> > >>> order to support legacy radios.
> > >>>
> > >>> You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink. The
> > >>> aggregator equipment does that part for you.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is most useful for public service and emergency communications.
> A
> > >>> communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
> > motivated
> > >>> ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it hears
> is
> > >>> sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire footprint.
> > >>>
> > >>> The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable by
> > >>> individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be repeated over
> > the
> > >>> internet.
> > >>>
> > >>> What does this get us?
> > >>>
> > >>> An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
> > experience
> > >>> with uplinks.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do we not have?
> > >>>
> > >>> A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink
> yourself,
> > or
> > >>> you can get it over the internet from an earth station distributor.
> > >>>
> > >>> That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design, deploy,
> > test,
> > >>> and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about GEO
> > comms and
> > >>> figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
> > >>>
> > >>> Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
> > >>>
> > >>> More soon!
> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
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> > program!
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> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
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> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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>