[amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US (emergency messaging)

Thu Aug 22 21:43:18 UTC 2019

We just looked at the 6 APRS active LEO satellites and about half the
time, you are no more than 30 minutes from a next pass, 75% of the time
you are less than 60 minutes to the next pass and 93% of the time your
next pass is within 90 minutes as shown in the plot on the APRS live
downlink pages:

http://aprs.org/sats.html

Though, admittedly the page is now showing ISS has not been heard in 10
days and PCSAT is only surviving about 1 minute per pass, and PSAT is
about to come in to good sun in a week or so.  But the idea is that if we
just add APRS digipeaters on more birds, we can approach near continuous
coverage for texting and emailing form an HT anywhere on earth (at
reasonable latitudes),...

Something to keep in the quiver for disaster and emergency messaging from
remote areas.

 Bob, WB4aPR

-----Original Message-----
From: AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb-bounces at amsat.org> On Behalf Of Michelle Thompson
via AMSAT-BB
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 11:43 AM
To: David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
Cc: &lt,amsat-bb at amsat.org&gt, <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Update: Rent GEO bandwidth for US

The idea originally came from FEMA and ARRL. It has been presented at
Symposium at least twice.

As a former EMT, I have used a variety emergency communications equipment
for drills and duty. I got all the ICS certifications and listened to lots
and lots of schemes, proposals, and marketing from all the usual suspects,
went to classes for CEUs where strange things were recommended that would
never work, and did things that were essentially hacks with equipment that
should have been retired before I was born. My views on emcomm are
conservative and largely immaterial. If FEMA is interested in this, then
finding out if it works is worth my time.

No AMSAT resources (e.g. money) are being asked for or are needed for
this.
It can only help AMSAT if it works, but if it doesn't, there's no harm
done to the club. We're supposed to experiment and advance the radio arts.
We need to understand what it means to rent transponder space.

When companies that are motivated to support amateur radio step up and do,
the least we can do is listen, weigh, consider, and take them up on it if
it looks like it would result in something positive. I believe this is one
of those opportunities, and I'm willing to do the due diligence and see
how far we can get.

In short, It is both/and, not either/or.

-Michelle W5NYV

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:22 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:

> The 'last mile' segment in this proposal is amateur spectrum yes, but
> that segment could also very easily be commercial or public safety
> spectrum as well. Heck, with a meg of bandwidth at 10g+ on your
> 'backbone' you could very easily establish a somewhat respectable
> packet link and then just have your "Aggregator" be nothing more than
> a wifi hotspot, which opens up all sorts of communication applications
> beyond simple push button HTs. If you're truly looking at this from an
> EMCOMM perspective, then the primary goal of the ESF-2 annex is
> 'communications infrastructure restoration' - which is ranked higher
> than 'tactical communications' anyway. Why screw with sending people
> with their HT's out to act as relays, when a pelican case with a dish
> and a Linksys can get everyone back on the net in 5 minutes?
>
> Therefore, I'm confused on why this is being brought up here other
> than solicitation by folks who wear multiple hats. There is precisely
> zero benefit to AMSAT or ARRL getting involved, and committing their
> scarce resources to a project that won't benefit amateurs. No contact
> made thru this proposed method will be a valid 'qso' for folks
> interested in that sort of thing. No expertise or engineering will be
required of the 'users'
> of the system, other than to tune their device to whatever frequency
> the Aggregator builders require of them. The only folks that would
> benefit from such a proposal are the aggregator builders themselves,
> and possibly the public - and I say possibly because commercial
> systems like your proposal already exist and are in common use by
> organizations that respond to disasters. For 60 bucks a week I can
> rent a basic Inmarsat turn key solution, take it anywhere on the
> planet, and let any of the workers I'm supporting send and receive
> emails while I do something productive towards saving lives instead of
mashing my PTT button 23 hours a day.
>
> The idea is cool, but only from the perspective of the people getting
> to build it. For those us who've actually been in the shit trying to
> help re-establish comms after a real disaster, we've all learned once
> the cell phones and internet comes back online, no one gives a crap
> about our radios. The moment the Verizon truck rolls up with the 3m
> dish and portable tower trailer, our work is done. The *real* use for
> Ham in disasters these days is the basic idea that our gear can
> establish communications without some sort of proprietary
> middle-hardware needed. Don't believe me? I'd be happy to send you my
> graduate research paper on DPEM Applications of Geo-Synchronous
> Satellites I did a few years back. There are applications for our
> hobby in disasters, find some spectrum to rent on a Geo-bird that I
> (or some ham in the mountains of western Puerto Rico) can use directly
> and I'll be the first one to donate. Until then, for 24k a year AMSAT
> could probably launch another pair of Fox's that would be *actual*
amateur satellites.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:13 AM KC9SGV via AMSAT-BB
> <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Grrrr..
> > Replies to the list via email with pictures attached get wiped !
> > We need a modern BB or forum like AMSAT-DL....
> >
> > Here goes to the BB list again without pictures:
> >
> > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into
> > Echolink nodes.
> > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
satellite.
> > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
> > distance constraints.
> > Still an Emcomm use here.
> >
> > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go
> > into the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or
> > even use Skype, like in the early days of remote HF station use.
> > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free
> > RCForb remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com A
> > R&D use here.
> >
> > KC9SGV
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:01 AM, KC9SGV <kc9sgv at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > We could go RF HF or VHF into the aggregator like we do into
> > > Echolink
> > nodes.
> > > The aggregator then send the signal via commercial RF into the
> satellite.
> > > Of course, this signal will be degraded by HF multi path and VHF
> > distance constraints.
> > > Still an Emcomm use here.
> > >
> > > Or, we could forego the Emcomm utility, use the Internet, and go
> > > into
> > the aggregator via Echolink audio (computer to computer) or even use
> Skype,
> > like in the early days of remote HF station use.
> > > Of course we could also use the gold standard audio of the free
> > > RCForb
> > remote HF station software as found on www.remotehams.com
> > > A R&D use here.
> > > Like this :
> > > <image1.PNG>
> > >
> > >
> > > Bernard,
> > > KC9SGV
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:25 AM, John Kludt via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Ev,
> > >>
> > >> But the aggregator can't uplink directly to the satellite as the
> uplink
> > is outside of the amateur bands.  So the aggregator must send
> > everything
> to
> > an earth station with a commercial license, correct?
> > >>
> > >> Would the aggregator be single channel or work more like a linear
> > transponder sending along multiple signals in mixed modes at once?
> > >>
> > >> Unless I am wrong, the aggregator must be colocated with the
> commercial
> > earth station or we are back into Internet required land thereby
> decreasing
> > the encomm utility of this effort.
> > >>
> > >> Sancho
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my Verizon Motorola Smartphone
> > >>> On Aug 21, 2019 22:34, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB
> > >>> <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Michelle,
> > >>> What a fascinating opportunity.  I'd like to try to describe
> > >>> this
> > using different words to see if I get it.
> > >>> Echostar 9 is a geosynchronous satellite with 1 MHz of spectrum
> > >>> to
> > sell.
> > >>> Both the up and down frequencies are outside of the amateur bands.
> > >>> To use it, an aggregator is needed.  An aggregator is a "bridge"
> > device that converts amateur-band RF to satellite uplink RF and
> > setellite downlink RF to amateur-band RF.
> > >>> Amateurs simply need to be in range of an aggregator.  It is the
> > aggregators responsibility to remain aimed at the satellite.
> > >>>
> > >>> The aggregator determines if it will bridge FM or Linear (SSB,
> > >>> CW,
> > PSK31, etc.) modes.
> > >>> Is this right?
> > >>> Regards,Ev, W2EV
> > >>>
> > >>>    On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 9:38:12 PM EDT, Michelle
> > >>> Thompson
> > via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> An arrangement on Echostar9 for 1MHz of bandwidth for up to 4
> > >>> years
> of
> > >>> USA+Mexico+Canada coverage is on offer for $2000 a month.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm putting together a grant proposal for ARRL, FEMA, and others
> > >>> to
> > pay for
> > >>> at least year of access. I've gotten some positive feedback
already.
> I
> > >>> think we can make this happen with some fundraising effort. I'm
> > willing to
> > >>> provide the human resources and whatever incidental financing
> > >>> needs
> to
> > >>> happen to secure a grant for rental.
> > >>>
> > >>> The main purpose of this type of system would be to enable field
> > deployment
> > >>> of "legacy mode" aggregators, like the Phase 4 Ground ARAP
> > >>> (Amateur
> > Radio
> > >>> Access Point). This is where traffic on any ham band, using FM
> > >>> or
> > analog
> > >>> gear, is digitized by a local "collecting" repeater, and is then
> > >>> sent
> > to a
> > >>> satellite from that repeater. FEMA and ARRL have expressed a lot
> > >>> of interest and support for this in the past. Phase 4 Ground
> > >>> needs an
> > ARAP in
> > >>> order to support legacy radios.
> > >>>
> > >>> You don't have to personally have a microwave digital uplink.
> > >>> The aggregator equipment does that part for you.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is most useful for public service and emergency
communications.
> A
> > >>> communications emergency is declared, someone (FEMA, Red Cross,
> > motivated
> > >>> ham volunteer) drops in the aggregator, and all ham traffic it
> > >>> hears
> is
> > >>> sent to the satellite and then transmitted to the entire
footprint.
> > >>>
> > >>> The downlink is 12-14GHz. This is not 10GHz, but is receivable
> > >>> by individuals using very inexpensive gear. Traffic can be
> > >>> repeated over
> > the
> > >>> internet.
> > >>>
> > >>> What does this get us?
> > >>>
> > >>> An opportunity to do all the R&D for the aggregator and get some
> > experience
> > >>> with uplinks.
> > >>>
> > >>> What do we not have?
> > >>>
> > >>> A true ham band downlink. You can still receive the downlink
> yourself,
> > or
> > >>> you can get it over the internet from an earth station
distributor.
> > >>>
> > >>> That's where we're at with *this* proposal.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think it's worth it to provide a US-based way to design,
> > >>> deploy,
> > test,
> > >>> and use real world aggregator equipment. We learn a lot about
> > >>> GEO
> > comms and
> > >>> figure out a lot of the ins and outs.
> > >>>
> > >>> Comment and critique welcome and encouraged.
> > >>>
> > >>> More soon!
> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > >>> views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> > >>> satellite
> > program!
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> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > >>> views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
> > >>> satellite
> > program!
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> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > >> available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
> > Opinions expressed
> > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > >> views
> > of AMSAT-NA.
> > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
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> > _______________________________________________
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> > available to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > views of AMSAT-NA.
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> program!
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> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect
> the official views of AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
_______________________________________________
Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to
all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
expressed are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
views of AMSAT-NA.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb