[amsat-bb] Who Let THIS Info Out?

Thu Aug 6 02:55:35 UTC 2020

Well you kind of answered your own question. You don't understand why a
group would be so disgruntled yet continue to be involved. Either they are
all trolls or they care and want to change things in a way they truly
believe is better. I don't doubt the incumbents have positive intentions
and mean no harm... Mostly they do positive things, but they have done a
few things I disagree with. You seem to be refusing to see why anyone could
feel that way. Until then I guess it makes sense to just want it to go away.

As for your second paragraph, of course if you ask all the people who have
been in charge for the last several years who did the things that got done,
they will all point at each other. That is not the point. The point is,
some people want to do new/different things that they haven't gotten an
adequate chance to do.

73, John Brier KG4AKV

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 22:17 Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> John Brier is signed on to your campaign, per the reference link that I
> provided... and, he's replying to me saying "well, Bruce shouldn't leave!"
> to my response.  That's all i'm saying...
>
>
> I don't understand what could make a group of people so disgruntled
> against the AMSAT BOD or just generally against the organization,
> volunteers, membership, etc... Negativity at this level never brings
> results.  I can not understand why such a group would continue to be
> involved with the organization.  Your thoughts and opinions do not
> intersect well with what I have observed in the past of the volunteers or
> members that i've known or my understanding of the present organization.
> In addition, the mis-characterizations of relationships and productivity is
> disheartening and damaging.
>
>
> Anyhow, for all of you bb-members who just say "aw, well, I just want to
> discuss sats and no politics...."... understand that your vote will
> directly affect how AMSAT coordinates, communicates, negotiates and
> develops future satellite projects.  It is a serious vote for the future of
> the organization in many, many ways.  It's a vote that should support the
> engineers that put serious, difficult, hard work into many projects
> to-date.  I suggest that you all reach out to the existing BOD members, all
> of them and talk to them individually.  Read what they have written, talk
> to the engineers, talk to the project leads, seek their opinions, etc...
> ask who was writing software, designing hardware, working on schedules,
> logistics, launch requirements, testing, etc... Who worked documentation,
> etc... see who those people are and who they rely on and circle back to,
> ask explicitly!  Ask who they are voting for.  Talk to previous board
> members also, and ask about what the bottlenecks were, who were the
> individuals getting stuff done.  It's not hard, just do not read the
> opinions of others on the -bb (myself included).  Make an informed
> decision, Skype, Zoom, jit.si, phone call, email, etc... whatever it
> takes.  Make a serious effort to reach out and determine what is in the
> best interest of AMSAT.  I know who is, in my opinion (Hammond, Paige,
> Stoetzer) but everyone needs to resolve this individually.
>
>
> 73s & NM,
>
> Joseph Armbruster
>
> KJ4JIO
>
> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 8:06 PM Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
>
>> Joseph,
>>
>> This is either ad-hominem or just incomprehensible. I know you are
>> capable of presenting credible arguments. Please endeavor to do so.
>>
>>     Thanks
>>
>>     Bruce
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM Joseph Armbruster <
>> josepharmbruster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> I can see it being unhelpful, if you signed on with the guy that i'm
>>> asking to go away :-)
>>> ref: https://perens.com/static/AMSAT/Election2020.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joseph Armbruster
>>> KJ4JIO
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:33 PM John Brier <johnbrier at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "wish you would just stop, go away and maybe work harder at growing ORI"
>>>>
>>>> At this point it's clear there are big disagreements and issues that
>>>> must be worked out so wishing or suggesting people just go away seems
>>>> unhelpful. Might as well leave this point out as it just muddies the
>>>> waters around any reasonable points you have.
>>>>
>>>> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:08 PM Joseph Armbruster via AMSAT-BB
>>>> <amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Bruce,
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > All your statements about AMSAT leadership are a false narrative that
>>>> you
>>>> > and your crew are constantly perpetuating to discredit the
>>>> organization,
>>>> > for the sake of securing like-minded individuals on the BOD.  I can
>>>> only
>>>> > assume, with the intention of growing ORI?  I mean, you did say they
>>>> got
>>>> > three amateur radio in space grants, right?  Why weren't those pursued
>>>> > through AMSAT?  What you're doing to AMSAT on the bb publicly is quite
>>>> > sad, though no doubt, coordinated and with intent.  There are many of
>>>> us
>>>> > members (some vocal, many not) that really wish you would just stop,
>>>> go
>>>> > away and maybe work harder at growing ORI.  This action would
>>>> directly help
>>>> > preserve AMSATs integrity and give you a path to direct your effort
>>>> and
>>>> > energy more productively.  Think of the problems you could solve if
>>>> you
>>>> > were just not being held back..?  I know engineers personally that
>>>> helped
>>>> > developed that power supply for ARISS and they are really sharp,
>>>> *involved
>>>> > AMSAT members* that from my own observation have invested countless
>>>> years
>>>> > of their lives building kit for AMSAT.  I saw it and it's some
>>>> amazing,
>>>> > amazing, amazing hardware.  I speak per my observations of these
>>>> > individuals, not for them.  Every volunteer organization gains and
>>>> looses
>>>> > members, all the time, depending on what's going on in their life,
>>>> state of
>>>> > the economy, etc...that's not surprising nor necessarily a reflection
>>>> of
>>>> > the work taking place within the organization, or its leadership.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Joseph Armbruster
>>>> >
>>>> > KJ4JIO
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:07 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
>>>> amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > It is entirely not in ARISS-USA's and AREx's interest to involve
>>>> themselves
>>>> > > publicly in AMSAT politics, or indeed that of almost any other
>>>> > > organization. While I was curious about the "why now" and "was it
>>>> an AMSAT
>>>> > > issue", it is potentially damaging to ARISS-USA and AREx to pursue
>>>> that,
>>>> > > and I respect Frank's request that we stop, which he first made
>>>> several
>>>> > > weeks ago.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > In contrast, my perception is that AMSAT leadership is pursuing a
>>>> course
>>>> > > that has so damaged its relationship with many previously-active
>>>> > > volunteers, at least one major donor, and a good portion of the
>>>> membership
>>>> > > and non-member hams; that public intervention is necessary - and
>>>> > > appropriate within the context of an election.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >     Thanks
>>>> > >
>>>> > >     Bruce
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:42 AM Fernando Ramirez via AMSAT-BB <
>>>> > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > > I understand Frank's concerns and agree that these matters must be
>>>> > > handled
>>>> > > > very carefully.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > For that same reason I think two separate legally established
>>>> entities
>>>> > > must
>>>> > > > discuss their current partnership beyond of a press release.
>>>> Probably
>>>> > > > both AMSAT
>>>> > > > and ARISS USA need to draft and approve a Memorandum of
>>>> Understanding
>>>> > > > establishing, in writing, how are things going to work from now
>>>> on.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Like we say in good ol' Castilian "well defined business safeguard
>>>> > > > friendships)
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > 73
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Fernando KF7R
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 11:13 AM Michelle Thompson <
>>>> > > > mountain.michelle at gmail.com>
>>>> > > > wrote:
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > > Frank sums up the problems very well.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > An organization with unaddressed unauthorized spending could
>>>> lose
>>>> > > > > opportunities in space. Refusing to even meet to talk about
>>>> this and
>>>> > > > other
>>>> > > > > problems has put the organization at risk. That is what has
>>>> happened.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > We can't collaborate when we are denied meetings.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > We can't have teamwork without collaboration.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > I am optimistic things can and will improve.
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > -Michelle W5NYV
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:36 AM Frank Bauer via AMSAT-BB <
>>>> > > > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > >> >>3. I had e-mailed Clayton Coleman and the Board on 13 June,
>>>> calling
>>>> > > > for
>>>> > > > >> a meeting to discuss the announcement of the formation of the
>>>> new
>>>> > > > ARISS-USA
>>>> > > > >> organization, and the effect that would have on AMSAT.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> I would like to respectfully request for folks to stop trying
>>>> to drag
>>>> > > > >> ARISS and the new AREx initiative into this political battle.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> In previous posts, Dave Taylor, W8AAS, the AMSAT delegate to
>>>> ARISS,
>>>> > > and
>>>> > > > I
>>>> > > > >> have stated that ARISS-USA became an entity to allow ARISS to
>>>> sign
>>>> > > > >> agreements (with NASA and others) and seek grants in the ARISS
>>>> name.
>>>> > > In
>>>> > > > >> the past, AMSAT has done that in the US on behalf of ARISS.
>>>> The
>>>> > > > functional
>>>> > > > >> change is that ARISS is assuming  for itself some of the tasks
>>>> that
>>>> > > > AMSAT
>>>> > > > >> has donated support to accomplish. (and we thank AMSAT for this
>>>> > > donated
>>>> > > > >> support!)  The good working relationship that ARISS has had
>>>> with AMSAT
>>>> > > > over
>>>> > > > >> the years is NOT changing.  For more information, read the
>>>> press
>>>> > > > release on
>>>> > > > >> the new ARISS-USA entity on the ARISS web site www.ariss.org
>>>> (6th
>>>> > > > >> article down).
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> One item I will remind all of you:  Getting into space is HARD.
>>>> > > > >> Collaboration and teamwork are essential elements of space
>>>> mission
>>>> > > > >> success.  Infighting and back biting are a recipe for disaster
>>>> in
>>>> > > > >> organizations and especially in space.  If you all continue
>>>> these
>>>> > > > >> behaviors, you will lose your opportunities to fly your space
>>>> missions
>>>> > > > of
>>>> > > > >> the future.  Space agencies and space corporations only want
>>>> to work
>>>> > > > with
>>>> > > > >> folks that are dedicated to mission success.  I ask all to get
>>>> over
>>>> > > your
>>>> > > > >> grievances and start working as a team as I would hate to see
>>>> AMSAT
>>>> > > lose
>>>> > > > >> space opportunities and space relationships that have taken
>>>> decades to
>>>> > > > >> build.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> 73,  Frank Bauer, KA3HDO
>>>> > > > >> ARISS-USA Executive Director
>>>> > > > >> AMSAT-NA V.P. for Human Spaceflight Programs
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> > > > >> From: Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) <amsat-bb at wd9ewk.net>
>>>> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 1:30 AM
>>>> > > > >> To: Fernando Ramirez <framirezferrer at gmail.com>; AMSAT <
>>>> > > > >> amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>>>> > > > >> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Who Let THIS Info Out?
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> Fernando,
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> Thanks for asking. Yes, I have made calls for meetings, and
>>>> there
>>>> > > should
>>>> > > > >> have been meetings since the last special meeting at the end
>>>> of March.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> 1. Discuss the thousands of dollars in unauthorized spending
>>>> on legal
>>>> > > > >> expenses since 2018 - a point that is not disputed in the
>>>> letter AMSAT
>>>> > > > >> President Clayton Coleman sent to members last month.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> 2. After Robert Bankston's financial report was released in
>>>> > > mid-March, I
>>>> > > > >> asked for a meeting to discuss the "cost-saving and budgetary
>>>> control
>>>> > > > >> measures" he started to implement. After many months, Robert
>>>> has not
>>>> > > > >> discussed these measures. Given the unauthorized spending, it
>>>> appears
>>>> > > > AMSAT
>>>> > > > >> is in dire need of budgetary control measures.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> 3. I had e-mailed Clayton Coleman and the Board on 13 June,
>>>> calling
>>>> > > for
>>>> > > > a
>>>> > > > >> meeting to discuss the announcement of the formation of the new
>>>> > > > ARISS-USA
>>>> > > > >> organization, and the effect that would have on AMSAT.
>>>> > > > >> Clayton informed the Board on 16 June that he would gather his
>>>> notes
>>>> > > > >> regarding a discussion with Frank Bauer and ARISS-USA, and
>>>> review them
>>>> > > > with
>>>> > > > >> the Board. As of tonight, nothing from Clayton.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> Michelle has also made calls for meetings. Yet none of the
>>>> other 5
>>>> > > > >> directors - including the two running for reelection this
>>>> summer -
>>>> > > have
>>>> > > > >> joined our calls for meetings. Clayton could call meetings,
>>>> but has
>>>> > > > chosen
>>>> > > > >> not to. I would be more than happy to discuss these, and other
>>>> issues,
>>>> > > > >> during an on-the-record Board meeting where minutes are made
>>>> available
>>>> > > > to
>>>> > > > >> AMSAT members.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> Thank you.
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> Patrick Stoddard, WD9EWK/VA7EWK
>>>> > > > >> http://www.wd9ewk.net/
>>>> > > > >> Twitter: @WD9EWK or http://twitter.com/WD9EWK
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>>>> > > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>> available
>>>> > > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>>>> membership.
>>>> > > > >> Opinions expressed
>>>> > > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the
>>>> official views
>>>> > > of
>>>> > > > >> AMSAT-NA.
>>>> > > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
>>>> satellite
>>>> > > > program!
>>>> > > > >> Subscription settings:
>>>> > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>> > > > >>
>>>> > > > >
>>>> > > > _______________________________________________
>>>> > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>> available
>>>> > > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>> > > Opinions
>>>> > > > expressed
>>>> > > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>>> views of
>>>> > > > AMSAT-NA.
>>>> > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> > > program!
>>>> > > > Subscription settings:
>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>> > > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
>>>> eventually
>>>> > > :-)
>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>>> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>>> available
>>>> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>> Opinions
>>>> > > expressed
>>>> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>>> views of
>>>> > > AMSAT-NA.
>>>> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> program!
>>>> > > Subscription settings:
>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>> > >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>>> Opinions expressed
>>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>>> of AMSAT-NA.
>>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>>> program!
>>>> > Subscription settings:
>>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
>> eventually :-)
>>
>