[amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards

Joseph Armbruster josepharmbruster at gmail.com
Thu Aug 20 00:41:30 UTC 2020 

note: i'm mobile.

Trust is not demanded, it's earned.  Just produce the full request and show
everyone on the -bb that it supports the claim.  It seems like a no brainer
to me...

Joe, KJ4JIO


On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 6:50 PM John Brier <johnbrier at gmail.com> wrote:

> "This whole thing is functionally equivalent to some couple hiring an
> attorney to help fill out immigration forms and then some family member
> comes up to them and asks "hey can i see how you filled out section X?"
>
> You don't trust Michelle so this comparison is not reasonable.
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 18:00 Joseph Armbruster <josepharmbruster at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> John Brier,
>>
>> Anyone on the -bb can see right through this John, by simply examining
>> the submission form from the DDTC themselves.  Anyone on the -bb can
>> register with the DDTC Right Now and submit the same form for some other
>> request... and, send me, you and everyone else on the-bb a copy of the
>> forms before, after, or during the submission.  The DDTC does not require
>> it to be kept a secret.
>>
>> And, an attorney was hired... whoopty doo!  Did whoever is working with
>> the attorney sign over all right, title and interest in the form submission
>> to the attorney!?  And if-so, do you really trust people that think having
>> to ask an attorney for permission to handle their own information is a
>> great idea!?!  Just the thought of being pigeon holed into working with a
>> single attorney or firm and having to check with them to get a release
>> signed from them, before releasing information like this, is frightening to
>> me!  It's not like this is a criminal defense case...  This whole thing is
>> functionally equivalent to some couple hiring an attorney to help fill out
>> immigration forms and then some family member comes up to them and asks
>> "hey can i see how you filled out section X?"... and then, the couple turns
>> around and says "Oh, no... I have to ask my attorney for a release before I
>> let you see it".... seriously ?!!?
>>
>> Why, in all humanity... would you ever give an attorney leverage over
>> your documents / information ?!?!
>>
>> She's going to be hard pressed to find anyone else that has publicized
>> their DDTC submissions.  But this is entirely besides the point and
>> irrelevant, and YOU ALL KNOW IT.  Most companies have a reason to protect
>> the development of their (or others) defense articles.  There are no
>> defense articles or other IP to protect here, as-far-as-we-all-know?!!?!?
>> Why does an organization focused on transparent open source development of
>> amateur satellite technology care about protecting this submission to the
>> DDTC?  That's a more critical question.  Why wasn't the DDTC submission
>> provided to the -bb community before being sent out?  So we could know what
>> was being requested and why?
>>
>>
>> Attach, select file, send already,
>> Joseph Armbruster
>> KJ4JIO
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 5:34 PM John Brier via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>
>>> This is not a double standard or a lack of transparency. Their lawyer
>>> requested they not release certain information and they are doing as
>>> requested.
>>>
>>> Open source software companies work with security embargos on
>>> vulnerabilities, and NDAs on prerelease hardware all the time. They keep
>>> specific things secret for as long as they have to and then open it up as
>>> soon as they can.
>>>
>>> Michelle even said she would double check with the lawyers to see if they
>>> can release it. She is also looking into whether there are examples of
>>> this
>>> form being published online by other orgs. She is not saying flat out no
>>> because I have a right to.
>>>
>>> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 16:21 David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
>>> amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I'm sorry - but this thread is absolutely hilarious, and the last
>>> reply by
>>> > Mr. Perens is the cherry on top of the stupidity cake.
>>> >
>>> > Michelle and her comrades have spouted all about transparency and
>>> openness
>>> > for the past year, but when they're presented with an opportunity to be
>>> > transparent and open with their competing organizations they play the
>>> 'Our
>>> > Lawyers said not to share card'. When presented with their hypocrisy
>>> they
>>> > retreat to the completely expected position of politicians everywhere
>>> by
>>> > claiming that while AMSAT should make everything open, ORI has a right
>>> to
>>> > keep things secret, because what they're doing is special and
>>> different.
>>> > And then - amazingly - still have the audacity to somehow justify their
>>> > position by claiming AMSAT isn't launching satellites? Unless I'm
>>> mistaken,
>>> > ORI/Perens Inc. have launched precisely *ZERO* birds ever - AMSAT has
>>> put 4
>>> > birds in orbit since I've been a member, and has provided parts and
>>> > guidance to countless 3rd parties to launch their own birds. They have
>>> a
>>> > realistic plan to get more birds into the orbits operators want
>>> despite not
>>> > being part of the in-crowd... I have complete faith that they will
>>> deliver,
>>> > because they already have. ORI has delivered jack all except promises
>>> and
>>> > chaos.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe - just MAYBE - this thread lays bare what the community will be
>>> > getting with "the slate" of candidates. A whole bunch of "Thee, but
>>> not for
>>> > me" type of leadership, and a whole bunch of empty guarantees.
>>> >
>>> > -Dave, KG5CCI
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:17 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
>>> > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has
>>> already
>>> > > been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to
>>> have a
>>> > > hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It
>>> isn't
>>> > > going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
>>> > build
>>> > > and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing
>>> that
>>> > is
>>> > > the only agenda.
>>> > >
>>> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>>> > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the
>>> > take
>>> > > > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at
>>> least
>>> > > until
>>> > > > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of
>>> ego. I
>>> > now
>>> > > > question their judgement And motivation. That’s on you. TEAM
>>> politics
>>> > > isn’t
>>> > > > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
>>> > > candidates
>>> > > > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they
>>> > campaign.
>>> > > > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of
>>> this
>>> > > > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
>>> > forward.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > EMike, AA8EM
>>> > > >
>>> > > > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>>> > > > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
>>> > > > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
>>> > > > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
>>> > > > mountain.michelle at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > 
>>> > > > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in
>>> this
>>> > > > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
>>> > > > transparent.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the
>>> only
>>> > > > restriction we are talking about.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
>>> > access
>>> > > > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up
>>> without the
>>> > > > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
>>> > communications
>>> > > > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature
>>> > form
>>> > > > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and
>>> you
>>> > as
>>> > > a
>>> > > > member are not allowed to know about.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the
>>> way
>>> > you
>>> > > > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
>>> > > > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > -Michelle W5NYV
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>>> > > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>> > > > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past
>>> BOoD
>>> > > > election
>>> > > > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of
>>> the
>>> > > > Lawyers
>>> > > > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even
>>> be an
>>> > > > >> argument.
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >> Michelle Wrote:
>>> > > > >> "Unless, of course, this  Information contained in CJ requests
>>> is
>>> > not
>>> > > > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it
>>> was
>>> > > > presented
>>> > > > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This
>>> advice was
>>> > > > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
>>> > > > products.
>>> > > > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised
>>> > strongly
>>> > > > >> against, would not work to our
>>> > > > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on
>>> the
>>> > > > wrong
>>> > > > >> hill.  as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not
>>> just
>>> > > > >> convenient."
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements?
>>> Without
>>> > the
>>> > > > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across
>>> as a
>>> > > > simple
>>> > > > >> political stunt. Enough already.
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in
>>> individuals
>>> > > whom I
>>> > > > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to
>>> > keep
>>> > > > >> amateur radio in space.
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >> EMike, AA8EM
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >>
>>> > > > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
>>> > > > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
>>> > > > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
>>> > > > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
>>> > > > >> _______________________________________________
>>> > > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> > available
>>> > > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring
>>> membership.
>>> > > > Opinions expressed
>>> > > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> > views
>>> > > > of AMSAT-NA.
>>> > > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur
>>> satellite
>>> > > > program!
>>> > > > >> Subscription settings:
>>> > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> > > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> available
>>> > > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> > > Opinions
>>> > > > expressed
>>> > > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> views
>>> > of
>>> > > > AMSAT-NA.
>>> > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> > > program!
>>> > > > Subscription settings:
>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> > > >
>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>>> available
>>> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> > Opinions
>>> > > expressed
>>> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>>> views of
>>> > > AMSAT-NA.
>>> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> > program!
>>> > > Subscription settings:
>>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> > >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions
>>> > expressed
>>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>>> of
>>> > AMSAT-NA.
>>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>> >
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>>> Opinions expressed
>>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>>> AMSAT-NA.
>>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>>> program!
>>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>>
>>

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