[amsat-bb] Members Please Read (Bruce Perens)
Paul F. Merrill
marinesvcs at gmail.com
Tue Jul 14 04:51:46 UTC 2020
>
> Bruce - I responded to you privately - it took effort on your part to
> choose to add the entire group to your reply. By doing so, you've
> extablished, for me at least, your level of trustworthiness and integrity
> in this discussion.
Paul
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:09:12 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>
> To: "Paul F. Merrill" <marinesvcs at gmail.com>, AMSAT BB
> <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAK2MWOv13HXELW1kRJiZWGo2GUTBXgOV39atn5xVWY5SrKztzw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> The point I was trying to make was that by posing Robert's Rules as the
> tool of unsavory individuals, you seem to pose all rules that way. I think
> we should both agree that corporate directors should know their bylaws. It
> was my experience that Clayton did not read them before taking on operating
> the AMSAT election. AMSAT had to be told that it had a responsibility to
> provide addresses to the candidates for campaigning. The bylaws also call
> for the organizations publications to be available for campaigning - which
> is still not being fulfilled.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:31 AM Paul F. Merrill <marinesvcs at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I know what they are. It was an example, perhaps too subtle, of the
> > continually-plumbed depths of human dipshittery.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 23:01 Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Paul,
> >>
> >> Roberts Rules are regarding parliamentary procedure. AMSAT's bylaws are
> >> at
> >>
> https://www.amsat.org/bylaws-of-the-radio-amateur-satellite-corporation/
> >> . They do not specify parliamentary procedure. They are about
> >> responsibilities of a director, elections, etc. And if you have the
> choice,
> >> Roberts is an antique, good parliamentarians use Sturgis.
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 9:12 PM Paul F. Merrill via AMSAT-BB <
> >> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I agree that this mailing list has strayed from its strongest
> >>> contribution:
> >>> satellite information, discussion, and mentoring.
> >>>
> >>> I come from, and have been on the BOD of, a professional organization
> >>> for a
> >>> number of years now.
> >>>
> >>> FWIW, I know too well that an organization often lawyers up to protect
> >>> itself, and in our issues, our attorney was engaged to act solely on
> >>> behalf
> >>> of the Organization and not necessarily current management.
> >>>
> >>> This thread has turned in to a long, ugly diatribe filled with
> >>> accusations,
> >>> counter-accusations, and painfully-obvious shills. I am a
> >>> recently-renewed
> >>> member who doesn?t have a dog in the fight, so I just want what?s best
> >>> for
> >>> AMSAT.
> >>>
> >>> Sadly, the stereotypes are starting to show - the members who
> contribute
> >>> nothing but want to tear down those ?In power,? the members who
> >>> contribute
> >>> nothing and don?t want anyone to make waves, and the few who actually
> do
> >>> anything. As a number of people have commented, working in a
> non-profit
> >>> or
> >>> unpaid leadership role is utterly thankless, which is lost on many
> >>> people -
> >>> especially those who have never labored in this sort of endeavor.
> >>>
> >>> My favorite story from our times of trouble is when our Parliamentarian
> >>> said, ?Roberts Rules are the last refuge of a scoundrel. Grown men and
> >>> women should be able to comport themselves reasonably...but then I?d be
> >>> out
> >>> of a job.? I?m taking a little license with his exact words, but the
> >>> sentiment, along with my experience, formed my native distrust of those
> >>> who
> >>> are right and everyone and everything before them is wrong.
> So...there?s
> >>> my bias. I will examine that, and all the information I can before I
> >>> vote. I hope everyone else will take the time and expend the effort to
> >>> vote as intelligently as they can.
> >>>
> >>> My overriding guidance to my Association is that we contribute to the
> >>> group
> >>> so that we all benefit from the group. A strong organization should
> >>> outlive us.
> >>>
> >>> Personally, I can?t wait to vote and hopefully put a fork in this.
> >>>
> >>> Paul / W7IV
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ????????-
> >>>
> >>> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 19:27:24 -0700
> >>> From: "Daron Wilson" <daron at wilson.org>
> >>> To: "'AMSAT BB'" <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Members Please Read
> >>> Message-ID: <00b501d658bd$26119cc0$7234d640$@org>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>>
> >>> Is there a bulletin board that discusses amateur radio satellites
> >>> operations still? Asking for a friend. This is getting old.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Daron N7HQR
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:13:46 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Why we are having this big unpleasant argument on
> your satellite mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAK2MWOsL+EO6q3QnLjL395uSeLZR8QnkUuD9q3nJ+O4e7Kvytw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Most of you are members of AMSAT. IMO the organization has some serious
> problems, and as members it is your duty to steer the organization with
> your votes. That means that you should remain aware of what is going on and
> you should make an informed vote. The satellite discussions go on, mostly
> uninterrupted, all year. A short break for politics is not unreasonable,
> and acrimonious discussion is to be expected when we take that break.
>
> Organisations are run by people who would not be doing the work if they did
> not have strong emotions about it. And they all have their own failings.
> Unfortunately, volunteer non-profit directors (and many public ones in big
> corporations) never learn a critical skill of democracy: *how to deal
> properly with opposition. *That is the root of what we are arguing about
> now. Opposition are not the enemy! Yet, they are clearly being treated as
> such. They are simply people who would reform the organization or take it
> in a different direction from the incumbents.
>
> In this case, Michelle and Patrick, before they were elected, were the
> loyal opposition - dedicated to a better organization, and deeply troubled
> by the decisions and conduct of the incumbent board. The incumbent's
> response was not to work with the opposition, but to hunker down and use
> lawyers. To the incumbent's great distress, the very same people got sent
> to the board by the membership! Leading to more lawyers. IMO the incumbents
> should have read this as a signal from the membership, rather than doubling
> down their resistance.
>
> The sad reality is that the newly-elected directors have never been allowed
> to function as directors. You should be concerned, since they are the
> people whom you elected to represent you. The main means used to disable
> your elected representatives has been refusal by the incumbents to hold
> board meetings. This refusal is almost total, with exactly *one* meeting
> being held after the organization's annual convention.
>
> The second means used to disenfranchise the newly-elected directors was
> that the incumbents withheld information which a director would generally
> be expected to have access to. As it happened, this information was at
> least in part discussion of those very same people, and contracting of
> legal counsel in a process against them.
>
> Every board has the right to legal counsel. But it's expensive, and must be
> used wisely. This was not a wise use. A wise use would have been to engage
> the opposition rather than to hunker down.
>
> One very large cause of all of this is that the same people have been
> running AMSAT for a very long time, and it becomes an echo chamber after a
> while - the us-vs-them mentality of the board vs. the opposition - but
> really the board vs. everyone else - becomes self-reinforcing.
>
> This is obviously wrong for the organization. The solution is simple, and
> every organization needs it: *regular turn-over of the people in the
> organization's leadership. *Not the stratification that we currently have.
>
> You can fix this by electing more new blood to the board.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> --
> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
> :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:06:31 -0400
> From: Efrem Acosta <W2CZ at optonline.net>
> To: amsat-bb at amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] A question
> Message-ID: <F1920021-98F0-4650-B305-74A7DB72521E at optonline.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Is it true all posts now on this board are being held for approval by a
> moderator?
>
>
>
> 73 De W2CZ
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:45:19 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>
> To: David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOv-v8yj5NwO7XKz=
> nwxb+p1u-7FUF+fTJUKuNvQ7BPP7g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> David,
>
> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>
> > It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
> the
> > internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
> >
> > "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
> everyone
> > one of you".
> >
> > Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
> > forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
> >
> > If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
> > Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
> > Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their microwave,
> > digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
> > aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will only
> > come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with enough
> > hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
> >
> > For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)
> space
> > and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd
> parties
> > working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well, you
> > should know what to do.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
> > mountain.michelle at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in the
> > > bylaws.
> > >
> > > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended
> the
> > > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> > > inexpensive.
> > >
> > > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
> > >
> > > -Michelle W5NYV
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
> > AMSAT
> > >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
> for
> > the
> > >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
> yet
> > ORI
> > >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> > >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any attempt
> > to
> > >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director Thompson
> > about
> > >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As I
> > keep
> > >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> > >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
> > this
> > >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> > >>
> > >> -Dave, KG5CCI
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> > >> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Yes, I can.
> > >>>
> > >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
> > clarified
> > >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
> > asked
> > >>> me about it, as part of the record.
> > >>>
> > >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> > >>>
> > >>> He ran the election.
> > >>>
> > >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
> > words,
> > >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not include
> > >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of July
> > >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
> > >>> directly
> > >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and no
> > one
> > >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection
> themselves)
> > >>> had
> > >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> > >>>
> > >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
> challengers)
> > >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
> six
> > >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
> to.
> > >>>
> > >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
> > list,
> > >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> > >>>
> > >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and distributed
> it
> > >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
> and
> > >>> statements.
> > >>>
> > >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said yes.
> > >>> Since
> > >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted
> the
> > >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
> > >>> address.
> > >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
> used
> > >>> his
> > >>> preferred return address.
> > >>>
> > >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> > >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I
> sent
> > >>> the
> > >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> > >>>
> > >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
> > included
> > >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> > >>>
> > >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
> > primary
> > >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> > >>>
> > >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past and
> > >>> seemed
> > >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> > >>>
> > >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only ballot.
> > >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
> to
> > be
> > >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,
> in
> > >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
> > >>>
> > >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> > >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published bylaws.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot
> about
> > >>> the
> > >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was
> commonly
> > >>> done
> > >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to
> use
> > >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce was
> > >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen. *That*
> > >>> would
> > >>> be improper.
> > >>>
> > >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
> > address.
> > >>> We
> > >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
> > time
> > >>> or
> > >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
> > >>> notice.
> > >>> The printer required a real return address.
> > >>>
> > >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me because
> I
> > >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.
> That
> > >>> is a
> > >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for postage.
> > >>>
> > >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> > >>>
> > >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the board
> > that
> > >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> > >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark brought
> it
> > >>> up
> > >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> > >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
> > record.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
> > >>> twisting
> > >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate statements
> > out
> > >>> to
> > >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and Bruce
> > was
> > >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> > >>>
> > >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
> election
> > >>> purposes.
> > >>>
> > >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> > >>>
> > >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce
> Perens,
> > >>> and
> > >>> ORI.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> > Hello All,
> > >>> >
> > >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter we
> > all
> > >>> > received as members.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> >
> https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Leadership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> > >>> before.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses
> to
> > >>> > Open Research Institute."
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> > >>> serious
> > >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information
> lost?
> > >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as they
> > say
> > >>> > "out in the wind"?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
> how
> > >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it
> something
> > >>> > that was procured online?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back what
> > it
> > >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from happening
> in
> > >>> > the future.
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > I look forward to an answer
> > >>> >
> > >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > _______________________________________________
> > >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > available
> > >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > >>> Opinions
> > >>> > expressed
> > >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views
> > >>> of
> > >>> > AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > >>> program!
> > >>> > Subscription settings:
> > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >>> >
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > >>> Opinions expressed
> > >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of
> > >>> AMSAT-NA.
> > >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > >>> program!
> > >>> Subscription settings:
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >>>
> > >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> --
> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually
> :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 03:04:44 +0700
> From: Kenneth P Alexander <ve3hls at gmail.com>
> To: Steve Kristoff <skristof at etczone.com>
> Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAPOM0d=
> Pt9kPtHNmgxtfZdM4q2JxxqkbMFNM1pAxdj1cZFLFog at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> It's not that simple Brian. If you follow that line of thinking then
> people by the thousands would be renouncing their American citizenship
> because of the current shitshow in Washington, but I haven't heard of that
> happening.
>
> The best thing to do is stay in the game, sort through the hysteria and
> misinformation and exercise your right to vote when the time comes. Then
> you can move Amsat back to becoming an organization you'll want to remain a
> part of.
>
> Ok, back to sleep for me!
>
> 73,
>
> Ken Alexander, VE3HLS
> So Phisai, Thailand
> Blog: bueng-ken.com
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 2:52 AM Steve Kristoff via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > I worked a satellite just this morning. They are still up there. Just
> have
> > to step away from the computer and turn on the radio.
> >
> > Steve Ai9IN
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brian Karcher via AMSAT-BB (amsat-bb at amsat.org)
> > Date: 07/13/20 12:10
> > To: amsat-bb at amsat.org, amsat-bb-request at amsat.org
> > Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> >
> > I thought being a member of AMSAT was about keeping amateur radio in
> > space, learning about satellites and for some of us working amateur radio
> > satellites in space. Since the last election AMSAT seems to be about
> > nothing but politics and misinformation. In my opinion AMSAT was a lot
> > more fun to be apart of before the last election. All the politics and
> > misinformation drives people away from AMSAT and is not good for the
> > organization. I have been told in the past by one of the new board
> members
> > that all of this is necessary for change to happen. I don't see that
> AMSAT
> > has to go through some fundamental change or movement. I am tired of the
> > new AMSAT since the last election. I am seriously considering not
> renewing
> > my membership and I know plenty of other that are considering the same.
> > When will all of this end so we can start enjoying AMSAT again and
> working
> > satellites?
> >
> > Brian D. Karcher
> > KG5GJT
> >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:23:41 -0500
> From: David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> To: Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANq+eyV985yF4XZAmiZ0oifyutc+nGosE8RgpC0rZjtuC8h6SA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> By your own words, it was YOUR letter, in a letter YOU sent. No matter how
> many times you try and repeat the same line now - you've already proven
> yourself to be a fraud.
>
> And by the way, people often violate the rules for stupid and unnecassary
> reasons. It's very rarely the big lie you get caught in, it's all the
> smaller ones you use to cover the big one up.
>
> -Dave, KG5CCI
>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:29:50 -0700
> From: Fernando Ramirez <framirezferrer at gmail.com>
> To: Daniel Velez <djvnet at gmail.com>
> Cc: AMSAT -BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] when is the election being discussed?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAGHXx8jLoX5ADt7jDHfkh-OOBnH3zWFukA8oAHT-0R3Fq9O3Fw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> If you joined our renewed before July 1st, you will be getting a ballot
> after July 15.
>
> Saludos
> Fernando, KF7R
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:26 PM Daniel Velez via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I joined in June but I haven't seen any ballot info.
> > 73 de Dan
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:33:45 -0400
> From: Arthur Feller <afeller at ieee.org>
> To: Michelle Thompson <mountain.michelle at gmail.com>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
> Message-ID: <98C0DFD9-D12C-454B-BC39-30133A8CA3FD at ieee.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> AMSAT Members:
>
> We?re going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. No resolution in
> sight; only repetition, irritation, and turning away new and renewing
> members. Not constructive.
>
> Much as these subjects need to be and should be discussed, may I suggest
> taking this thread offline?
>
> I?m willing to facilitate an offline discussion.
>
> 73, art?..
> W4ART Arlington VA
> LM-113
>
> To thrive in life, you need three bones: a wish bone, a back bone, and a
> funny bone.
> - Reba McEntire
>
> http://afeller.us <http://afeller.us/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:35:14 +0000 (UTC)
> From: GEO Badger <w3ab at yahoo.com>
> To: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT-NA, another perspective
> Message-ID: <865720374.1065652.1594672514170 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I believe that all 501(c)(3) orgs must hold at least one BOD meeting per
> year or it is in violation of the incorporation rules and the org will risk
> losing their tax exempt status.
> 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
>
> |
> |
> |
> | | |
>
> |
>
> |
> |
> | |
> 3 Annual Requirements Every Nonprofit Should Know
>
> Congratulations, you?ve received 501(c)(3) status, so now what!? PAPERWORK
> AND MEETINGS! And also working for th...
> |
>
> |
>
> |
>
>
>
> ---??
> Ciao baby, catch you on the flip side??
> 73 de W3AB/GEO ????
>
> http://www.w3ab.org
>
> You can say "over", you can say "out", you just can't say "over and out".
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:13:20 -0700
> From: Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com>
> To: David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> Cc: AMSAT BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] AMSAT Member Mailing list
> Message-ID:
> <CAK2MWOvcy8V-UUYKEi9QYKuB5p=
> Bd-rVVg1KH5DReZ91rwCHcA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> OK, Dave, you were not born yesterday :-) As I have said, I never touched
> the mailing list, and never had to. I contributed $500 for postage, the
> rest was provided by the candidates. But if I *had* touched the mailing
> list, what nefarious things would I have done with it? You are mostly all
> listed on QRZ, etc. Am I the guy sending you those mails about how Ed
> McMahon will hand you the million-dollar check from Publishers Clearing
> House?
>
> What I am getting at here is that people don't violate rules for really
> stupid and unnecessary reasons. There was a simple way to send the letter
> within the rules, and we did it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:55 PM David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> wrote:
>
> > My apologies on the Twitter claim - when I tried loading it from source
> > nothing was displaying pre January 28th, 2020 - the day of your 'I am
> > signing off of social networking' declaration. (How'd that go btw?) I
> only
> > assumed you had deleted your tweets.
> >
> > As to your never ending story changing about the mailing list, I was born
> > at night, but it wasn't last night. Go try your story on another mark.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
> >
> >> David,
> >>
> >> My tweet was NOT deleted, and is still on twitter at
> >> https://twitter.com/BrucePerens/status/1154844208458416128
> >> As stated repeatedly, both by myself and Michelle, I did not handle the
> >> mailing list, she did. Which was 100% her right as a candidate.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:26 AM David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <
> >> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> It's always fun to remind folks tripping over their own feat lying that
> >>> the
> >>> internet is forever. From a Bruce Perens Tweet on July 13, 2020:
> >>>
> >>> "Please see my letter on the web, or the paper copy I've mailed to
> >>> everyone
> >>> one of you".
> >>>
> >>> Of course the original tweet was deleted, but the wayback machine never
> >>> forgets. Don't Believe me? http://druidnetworks.com/2020-07-13.png
> >>>
> >>> If you still think the membership list wasn't compromised, I just heard
> >>> Director Thompson will be auctioning off their ocean front property in
> >>> Arizona to all the members this year to raise funds for their
> microwave,
> >>> digital only, strictly open source crowd funded, vegan, social justice
> >>> aware cubesat launch to Proxima Centauri. Of course this launch will
> only
> >>> come after 10 years of ground station development, but fueled with
> enough
> >>> hopes, dreams and promises it will become a reality!
> >>>
> >>> For the rest of us who actually want to keep amateur radio in (real)
> >>> space
> >>> and are disgusted at the violations of privacy that occured by 3rd
> >>> parties
> >>> working to get Director Thompson and Director Stoddard elected, well,
> you
> >>> should know what to do.
> >>>
> >>> -Dave, KG5CCI
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM Michelle Thompson <
> >>> mountain.michelle at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > No database went anywhere except to candidates. This is allowed in
> the
> >>> > bylaws.
> >>> >
> >>> > Then, an automated bulk mail printing server was used. I recommended
> >>> the
> >>> > company to Brennan Price for this year's mailing. Good service,
> >>> > inexpensive.
> >>> >
> >>> > Return addresses don't magically transfer information.
> >>> >
> >>> > -Michelle W5NYV
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 04:32 David Swanson <dave at druidnetworks.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Spin Spin Spin. The simple truth here is Director Thompson took the
> >>> AMSAT
> >>> >> member database, and handed it over to a 3rd party competing entity
> >>> for the
> >>> >> purpose of solicitation. I know I did not give ORI my home address,
> >>> yet ORI
> >>> >> sent me a letter. This was a violation of my privacy, and for AMSAT
> >>> >> members living in the EU, this was a violation of the law. Any
> >>> attempt to
> >>> >> explain this away is just more lies and deceit from Director
> Thompson
> >>> about
> >>> >> the shady practices they have engaged in over the past few years. As
> >>> I keep
> >>> >> saying, this isn't a one time thing, this is a pattern of
> >>> >> reprehensible behavior that is unbecoming of an elected position and
> >>> this
> >>> >> community. Director Thompson and Director Stoddard should resign.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -Dave, KG5CCI
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 5:33 AM Michelle Thompson via AMSAT-BB <
> >>> >> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Yes, I can.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> That part of Clayton's letter is wrong and has been repeatedly
> >>> clarified
> >>> >>> before. Including at the 2019 annual board meeting, where Tom Clark
> >>> asked
> >>> >>> me about it, as part of the record.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Clayton Coleman was secretary in 2019.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> He ran the election.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> He decided that candidate statements were limited in length to 350
> >>> words,
> >>> >>> would be subject to editorial control by AMSAT, and could not
> include
> >>> >>> links. These new rules were given to us right before the 4th of
> July
> >>> >>> holiday with a deadline of the 7th.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> This is different than any election before, where statements went
> >>> >>> directly
> >>> >>> to the printer from the candidate, were not limited in length, and
> >>> no one
> >>> >>> from AMSAT leadership (who might be running for reelection
> >>> themselves)
> >>> >>> had
> >>> >>> any control over the content of their challengers' statements.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> We got these rules right before ballots went out. We (four
> >>> challengers)
> >>> >>> already had normal-sized statements on the web and they had been up
> >>> six
> >>> >>> weeks at that point. Those were the ones we wanted to use, and link
> >>> to.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> We knew that as candidates, we had the right to request the mailing
> >>> list,
> >>> >>> and send our own statements, independent of the ballot.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I requested the address list and got the DBASE4 export.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Bruce Perens had already written a letter of support and
> distributed
> >>> it
> >>> >>> widely on the web. It introduced us and included our four full bios
> >>> and
> >>> >>> statements.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I asked Bruce if we could use his letter in the mailing. He said
> yes.
> >>> >>> Since
> >>> >>> he was President of Open Research Institute at the time, he wanted
> >>> the
> >>> >>> return address to not be his private home address, but a business
> >>> >>> address.
> >>> >>> That was ORI's address. He was the author of the endorsement, so I
> >>> used
> >>> >>> his
> >>> >>> preferred return address.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I converted the DBASE4 to a more useful format, fixed the 50 or so
> >>> >>> undeliverable addresses, and found an inexpensive printer. Then I
> >>> sent
> >>> >>> the
> >>> >>> letter from Bruce to the printer, with the bios and statements.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> That turned out to be a good thing. Bios and statements were not
> >>> included
> >>> >>> with the ballots mailed out, at all.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> If we had not sent the letter, then name recognition would be the
> >>> primary
> >>> >>> factor. We were running against well-known people.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> We complained about this. It was unusual departure from the past
> and
> >>> >>> seemed
> >>> >>> set up to let leadership benefit from being incumbents.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> The original proposal from Clayton was for an electronic only
> ballot.
> >>> >>> Patrick said that the bylaws were a bit clunky here and it did need
> >>> to be
> >>> >>> mailed out on paper. Paper was required.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> This is a big reason why I made a motion at our one board meeting,
> >>> in
> >>> >>> March, for a bylaws committee.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> This bylaw isn't hard to fix. There's lots of examples out there of
> >>> >>> organizations doing electronic voting with working published
> bylaws.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Bruce made it very clear, when the incumbents stirred up the pot
> >>> about
> >>> >>> the
> >>> >>> return address, that it was an endorsement from him, this was
> >>> commonly
> >>> >>> done
> >>> >>> in political campaigns, and it would be grossly improper for me to
> >>> use
> >>> >>> AMSATs return address because that would make it look like Bruce
> was
> >>> >>> speaking for or was from AMSAT. That was not going to happen.
> *That*
> >>> >>> would
> >>> >>> be improper.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> No one candidate wanted their personal address used as a return
> >>> address.
> >>> >>> We
> >>> >>> were mailing this as a slate and splitting the cost. We didn't have
> >>> time
> >>> >>> or
> >>> >>> funds to make an organization or rent a box for one letter on short
> >>> >>> notice.
> >>> >>> The printer required a real return address.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> No one had the address list except the candidates. Namely me
> because
> >>> I
> >>> >>> contracted the printer and handled the DBASE4 address conversion.
> >>> That
> >>> >>> is a
> >>> >>> neat story in and of itself,, for another time.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Bruce only sent the text to me and chipped in some money for
> postage.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> The printing was automated in Van Nuys, CA.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> All of this is known to Clayton Coleman and his friends on the
> board
> >>> that
> >>> >>> signed the statement from this week. It has been explained by Bruce
> >>> >>> publicly, and by me several times on social media. Tom Clark
> brought
> >>> it
> >>> >>> up
> >>> >>> at the 2019 annual board meeting because of the return address
> >>> >>> pot-stirring. I explained it there too. Like I said, it's on the
> >>> record.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I think insinuating the addresses were mishandled is a deliberate
> >>> >>> twisting
> >>> >>> of honest efforts to scramble to get uncensored candidate
> statements
> >>> out
> >>> >>> to
> >>> >>> voters on short notice. We just didn't have a lot of time, and
> Bruce
> >>> was
> >>> >>> very generous in writing a cover letter.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Again, candidates are allowed the use of the mailing lists for
> >>> election
> >>> >>> purposes.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> So, no, there was no breach. Clayton knows all this.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Saying it the way he did is a cheap shot at me, Patrick, Bruce
> >>> Perens,
> >>> >>> and
> >>> >>> ORI.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -Michelle W5NYV
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 19:11 Kevin via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org
> >
> >>> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> > Hello All,
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > In a previous email to the BB I posted the link to the letter
> >>> we all
> >>> >>> > received as members.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> https://www.amsat.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200710_AMSAT_Leadership_Explains_Legal_Expenses.pdf
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > I was re-reading it and something caught my eye that I had missed
> >>> >>> before.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > "AMSAT did not provide a copy of its membership mailing addresses
> >>> to
> >>> >>> > Open Research Institute."
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > Just how was our mailing list compromised? This seems like a
> >>> >>> serious
> >>> >>> > breech of security, was this a hack? was any other information
> >>> lost?
> >>> >>> > was it ever found out how it happened? is our mailing list as
> they
> >>> say
> >>> >>> > "out in the wind"?
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > Michelle could you possibly check from the ORI side and backtrack
> >>> how
> >>> >>> > ORI came into possession of the AMSAT mailing list, was it
> >>> something
> >>> >>> > that was procured online?
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > AMSAT needs to follow up on this privacy issue and report back
> >>> what it
> >>> >>> > found and any steps that were taken to prevent this from
> happening
> >>> in
> >>> >>> > the future.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > I look forward to an answer
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > 73 Kevin WA7FWF #19623
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> >>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >>> available
> >>> >>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> >>> Opinions
> >>> >>> > expressed
> >>> >>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> >>> views
> >>> >>> of
> >>> >>> > AMSAT-NA.
> >>> >>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> >>> program!
> >>> >>> > Subscription settings:
> >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> >>> available
> >>> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> >>> views of
> >>> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> >>> program!
> >>> >>> Subscription settings:
> >>> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> >>> Opinions expressed
> >>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> >>> AMSAT-NA.
> >>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> >>> program!
> >>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is
> >> eventually :-)
> >>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via amsat-bb at amsat.org.
> AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available to all interested persons
> worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of AMSAT-BB Digest, Vol 15, Issue 247
> *****************************************
>
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