[amsat-bb] HEO/Elliptical [was: AMSAT-NA solution: DX (HEO) to attract more interest and revenue]

Wed Jul 31 18:24:49 UTC 2019

Indeed sir.

If we can get ahold of Kevin Bacon maybe we can get a GEO sat!

;-)

73, John Brier KG4AKV

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:14 PM John Kludt <johnnykludt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Ah, like I said a different Bacon's Law.  With very different implications.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 1:49 PM John Brier <johnbrier at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bacon's law here means everyone is no more than six people away from
>> someone who personally knows Kevin Bacon. He is saying we all know a
>> lot of people, enough people that we might be able to do impressive
>> things with them.
>>
>> Also, surely he doesn't mean AMSAT should drop everything for this
>> idea. I think you're reading into Ev's message too much.
>>
>> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 8:26 AM John Kludt via AMSAT-BB
>> <amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Ev,
>> >
>> > The orbital debris regulations are a huge barrier.  See Jerry's post on
>> > this reflector.  It is not the case that AMSAT is not looking very hard at
>> > the issue.  Everything has an opportunity cost associated with it.  AMSAT
>> > has limited resources both in terms of people and dollars.  Are you
>> > suggesting AMSAT drop everything they are working on and pursue your pet
>> > option?
>> >
>> > Bacon's Law was passed by the Virginia Legislature June 23, 1676, after
>> > Nathaniel Bacon *invaded* Jamestown and *forced* the legislature to grant
>> > him a charter to go fight Indians.  *That* Bacon's Law?  So you are
>> > suggesting we *invade* AMSAT HQ and *force* the Board of Director's to
>> > authorize this project?
>> >
>> > Maybe you are referring to a different Bacon's Law.  Sounds kind of over
>> > the top to me.
>> >
>> > Respectfully,
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 7:12 AM Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >  Somewhere in AMSAT there is someone who has "Project Managed" long enough
>> > > (or has access to process-flow diagrams) and can publish a generic work
>> > > breakdown of both the steps and resources needed to put a highly elliptical
>> > > (presumably less expensive) or Geostationary (presumably more expensive)
>> > > bird into orbit and manage it.
>> > >
>> > > If that person (or people) could publish that along with a "checkmark"
>> > > next to the items that are "already in place", "in active progress", and
>> > > "needs sponsor/enthusiast" then we are more likely to fill-in the gaps.
>> > >
>> > > Remember the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" game (a.k.a. "Bacon's Law")?
>> > > Let's play it out here!
>> > > Ev, W2EV
>> > >
>> > >     On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 6:15:19 PM EDT, Jerry Buxton via AMSAT-BB <
>> > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >  On 7/28/2019 18:46, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB wrote:
>> > > > What are the top barriers to revisiting highly elliptical and AO-40 type
>> > > goals?
>> > > Actually, from my perspective right now the top barrier is orbital
>> > > debris regulations.  GOLF-1 isn't going where I wanted to go because the
>> > > enforcement has become stringent and a hot topic worldwide.  We can't
>> > > license or launch anything that doesn't de-orbit within 25 years and a
>> > > HEO orbit (GTO actually, keeping it simple for this point) is likely to
>> > > last "too long" by itself.  There are options available for deorbit BUT
>> > > the kicker right now is that they have to be proven and approved by the
>> > > FCC.  In that we know of no such device(s) available at this time,
>> > > keeping within the current expectations of 3U.  A change in size (6U)
>> > > might yield some possibilities but I know of none there either, right
>> > > now.  We have been discussing and working with both NASA and FCC for
>> > > possibilities.  If something is available whether drag or propulsion,
>> > > then we get into the cost issue not to mention the price of a launch to
>> > > a GTO which is currently around $900k MSRP.  If we had a million bucks
>> > > and approved device(s) were available right now that fit within a $1
>> > > million budget then we would be pursuing that.
>> > >
>> > > Another option is to find a launch with a low enough perigee to
>> > > naturally decay in 25 years, but whether earning an ELaNa launch or
>> > > buying one, we will always be secondary payload and don't have a lot of
>> > > say in specific orbit parameters.
>> > >
>> > > One more option is rideshare, and that is also in active discussion.
>> > > The point there would be that the onus of orbital debris compliance is
>> > > on the satellite we hitch a ride with, although that also goes into not
>> > > having a lot of say on the final orbit not to mention satisfying a
>> > > primary payload that everything will be just fine if they take us
>> > > along.  And then again, there's likely cost there too...  We have some
>> > > options that wouldn't necessarily require lots of money, they just won't
>> > > be happening today.
>> > >
>> > > Other possibilities?  As far as I know we are pursuing the current
>> > > options available per NASA and FCC, but that doesn't mean that there
>> > > aren't other possibilities.  If you have any, keep in mind that building
>> > > a good case for use of whatever the possibility might be is key to
>> > > gaining any approval.  And 90% probability that whatever will get you
>> > > back in less than 25 years is a tough challenge.
>> > >
>> > > We are bucking a trend, general CubeSat missions are happy with going
>> > > lower or from ISS, and bucking the trend not new with AMSAT but it is
>> > > new in this world today because of the regulation and stakes as well as
>> > > the fact that most everyone we deal with has no knowledge of AMSAT
>> > > beyond the record the we have created and grown in the last 4 years of
>> > > launches.  We are not magically known just because we launched some
>> > > pretty cool satellites in the past.  Hopefully we will be known by more
>> > > through our continued contact, cooperation, and "by the book" production
>> > > and delivery of CubeSats with NASA, FCC, launch integrators, and others
>> > > who we look to for these launch opportunities.
>> > >
>> > > Or get a bunch of money because that probably is the second biggest
>> > > barrier...
>> > >
>> > > Jerry Buxton, NØJY
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
>> > > expressed
>> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> > > AMSAT-NA.
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>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb