[amsat-bb] HEO/Elliptical [was: AMSAT-NA solution: DX (HEO) to attract more interest and revenue]

Wed Jul 31 19:22:08 UTC 2019

I thought that was Six Degrees of Separation.

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:26 PM John Brier via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
wrote:

> Indeed sir.
>
> If we can get ahold of Kevin Bacon maybe we can get a GEO sat!
>
> ;-)
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:14 PM John Kludt <johnnykludt at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Ah, like I said a different Bacon's Law.  With very different
> implications.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 1:49 PM John Brier <johnbrier at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Bacon's law here means everyone is no more than six people away from
> >> someone who personally knows Kevin Bacon. He is saying we all know a
> >> lot of people, enough people that we might be able to do impressive
> >> things with them.
> >>
> >> Also, surely he doesn't mean AMSAT should drop everything for this
> >> idea. I think you're reading into Ev's message too much.
> >>
> >> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 8:26 AM John Kludt via AMSAT-BB
> >> <amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Ev,
> >> >
> >> > The orbital debris regulations are a huge barrier.  See Jerry's post
> on
> >> > this reflector.  It is not the case that AMSAT is not looking very
> hard at
> >> > the issue.  Everything has an opportunity cost associated with it.
> AMSAT
> >> > has limited resources both in terms of people and dollars.  Are you
> >> > suggesting AMSAT drop everything they are working on and pursue your
> pet
> >> > option?
> >> >
> >> > Bacon's Law was passed by the Virginia Legislature June 23, 1676,
> after
> >> > Nathaniel Bacon *invaded* Jamestown and *forced* the legislature to
> grant
> >> > him a charter to go fight Indians.  *That* Bacon's Law?  So you are
> >> > suggesting we *invade* AMSAT HQ and *force* the Board of Director's to
> >> > authorize this project?
> >> >
> >> > Maybe you are referring to a different Bacon's Law.  Sounds kind of
> over
> >> > the top to me.
> >> >
> >> > Respectfully,
> >> >
> >> > John
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 7:12 AM Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB <
> amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >  Somewhere in AMSAT there is someone who has "Project Managed" long
> enough
> >> > > (or has access to process-flow diagrams) and can publish a generic
> work
> >> > > breakdown of both the steps and resources needed to put a highly
> elliptical
> >> > > (presumably less expensive) or Geostationary (presumably more
> expensive)
> >> > > bird into orbit and manage it.
> >> > >
> >> > > If that person (or people) could publish that along with a
> "checkmark"
> >> > > next to the items that are "already in place", "in active
> progress", and
> >> > > "needs sponsor/enthusiast" then we are more likely to fill-in the
> gaps.
> >> > >
> >> > > Remember the "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" game (a.k.a. "Bacon's
> Law")?
> >> > > Let's play it out here!
> >> > > Ev, W2EV
> >> > >
> >> > >     On Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 6:15:19 PM EDT, Jerry Buxton via
> AMSAT-BB <
> >> > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >  On 7/28/2019 18:46, Ev Tupis via AMSAT-BB wrote:
> >> > > > What are the top barriers to revisiting highly elliptical and
> AO-40 type
> >> > > goals?
> >> > > Actually, from my perspective right now the top barrier is orbital
> >> > > debris regulations.  GOLF-1 isn't going where I wanted to go
> because the
> >> > > enforcement has become stringent and a hot topic worldwide.  We
> can't
> >> > > license or launch anything that doesn't de-orbit within 25 years
> and a
> >> > > HEO orbit (GTO actually, keeping it simple for this point) is
> likely to
> >> > > last "too long" by itself.  There are options available for deorbit
> BUT
> >> > > the kicker right now is that they have to be proven and approved by
> the
> >> > > FCC.  In that we know of no such device(s) available at this time,
> >> > > keeping within the current expectations of 3U.  A change in size
> (6U)
> >> > > might yield some possibilities but I know of none there either,
> right
> >> > > now.  We have been discussing and working with both NASA and FCC for
> >> > > possibilities.  If something is available whether drag or
> propulsion,
> >> > > then we get into the cost issue not to mention the price of a
> launch to
> >> > > a GTO which is currently around $900k MSRP.  If we had a million
> bucks
> >> > > and approved device(s) were available right now that fit within a $1
> >> > > million budget then we would be pursuing that.
> >> > >
> >> > > Another option is to find a launch with a low enough perigee to
> >> > > naturally decay in 25 years, but whether earning an ELaNa launch or
> >> > > buying one, we will always be secondary payload and don't have a
> lot of
> >> > > say in specific orbit parameters.
> >> > >
> >> > > One more option is rideshare, and that is also in active discussion.
> >> > > The point there would be that the onus of orbital debris compliance
> is
> >> > > on the satellite we hitch a ride with, although that also goes into
> not
> >> > > having a lot of say on the final orbit not to mention satisfying a
> >> > > primary payload that everything will be just fine if they take us
> >> > > along.  And then again, there's likely cost there too...  We have
> some
> >> > > options that wouldn't necessarily require lots of money, they just
> won't
> >> > > be happening today.
> >> > >
> >> > > Other possibilities?  As far as I know we are pursuing the current
> >> > > options available per NASA and FCC, but that doesn't mean that there
> >> > > aren't other possibilities.  If you have any, keep in mind that
> building
> >> > > a good case for use of whatever the possibility might be is key to
> >> > > gaining any approval.  And 90% probability that whatever will get
> you
> >> > > back in less than 25 years is a tough challenge.
> >> > >
> >> > > We are bucking a trend, general CubeSat missions are happy with
> going
> >> > > lower or from ISS, and bucking the trend not new with AMSAT but it
> is
> >> > > new in this world today because of the regulation and stakes as
> well as
> >> > > the fact that most everyone we deal with has no knowledge of AMSAT
> >> > > beyond the record the we have created and grown in the last 4 years
> of
> >> > > launches.  We are not magically known just because we launched some
> >> > > pretty cool satellites in the past.  Hopefully we will be known by
> more
> >> > > through our continued contact, cooperation, and "by the book"
> production
> >> > > and delivery of CubeSats with NASA, FCC, launch integrators, and
> others
> >> > > who we look to for these launch opportunities.
> >> > >
> >> > > Or get a bunch of money because that probably is the second biggest
> >> > > barrier...
> >> > >
> >> > > Jerry Buxton, NØJY
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> >> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> >> > > expressed
> >> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views of
> >> > > AMSAT-NA.
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> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> >> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> >> > > expressed
> >> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> views of
> >> > > AMSAT-NA.
> >> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
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> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> >> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions expressed
> >> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of AMSAT-NA.
> >> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> >> > Subscription settings:
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> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
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>

-- 
Stephen Nipper
Boise, Idaho
N7DJX