[amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards

Wed Aug 19 21:22:11 UTC 2020

No matter how many times the slate party repeats "The sky is green" it's
still not going to be true. Please stop. The slate party has called for an
open and transparent AMSAT, consequences (like torquing off a launch
provider or a government agency) be damned. When presented with the chance
actually *be* open and transparent themselves - you know, to walk the talk
- the slate party has refused to do so. This is a double standard, and the
height of hypocrisy. I stand by my assessment that ORI has produced nothing
of interest to operators, if I'm wrong - then please provide the list of
satellites ORI has launched... I'll wait. The only thing I care about AMSAT
doing is keeping Amateur Radio in Space, and that's the only reason I'm a
member, and it's the stated objective of this organization. ORI can do
whatever ORI wants, I'm not a member, and don't care what anyone
volunteering for that organization does, but I expect volunteers working in
AMSAT to be working towards that mission, not working towards
something unrelated to keeping amateur radio in space.

In case you've missed it in the past, I'm a proud part-owner in an ITAR
registered business - as we manufacture a small number of items for export
that are clearly munitions.  I'm here to tell you I won't be sharing
anything we've paid lawyers to produce for us, as it's a key part of our
intellectual property and contains information about our compliance. I have
absolutely no expectation that Michelle will be sharing their advisory
opinion, request or response. If they did, then I would say they have some
extremely poor lawyers advising them.

-Dave, KG5CCI

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:46 PM John Brier <johnbrier at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is not a double standard or a lack of transparency. Their lawyer
> requested they not release certain information and they are doing as
> requested.
>
> Open source software companies work with security embargos on
> vulnerabilities, and NDAs on prerelease hardware all the time. They keep
> specific things secret for as long as they have to and then open it up as
> soon as they can.
>
> Michelle even said she would double check with the lawyers to see if they
> can release it. She is also looking into whether there are examples of this
> form being published online by other orgs. She is not saying flat out no
> because I have a right to.
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 16:21 David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry - but this thread is absolutely hilarious, and the last reply by
>> Mr. Perens is the cherry on top of the stupidity cake.
>>
>> Michelle and her comrades have spouted all about transparency and openness
>> for the past year, but when they're presented with an opportunity to be
>> transparent and open with their competing organizations they play the 'Our
>> Lawyers said not to share card'. When presented with their hypocrisy they
>> retreat to the completely expected position of politicians everywhere by
>> claiming that while AMSAT should make everything open, ORI has a right to
>> keep things secret, because what they're doing is special and different.
>> And then - amazingly - still have the audacity to somehow justify their
>> position by claiming AMSAT isn't launching satellites? Unless I'm
>> mistaken,
>> ORI/Perens Inc. have launched precisely *ZERO* birds ever - AMSAT has put
>> 4
>> birds in orbit since I've been a member, and has provided parts and
>> guidance to countless 3rd parties to launch their own birds. They have a
>> realistic plan to get more birds into the orbits operators want despite
>> not
>> being part of the in-crowd... I have complete faith that they will
>> deliver,
>> because they already have. ORI has delivered jack all except promises and
>> chaos.
>>
>> Maybe - just MAYBE - this thread lays bare what the community will be
>> getting with "the slate" of candidates. A whole bunch of "Thee, but not
>> for
>> me" type of leadership, and a whole bunch of empty guarantees.
>>
>> -Dave, KG5CCI
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:17 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
>> amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has already
>> > been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to have a
>> > hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It
>> isn't
>> > going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
>> build
>> > and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing that
>> is
>> > the only agenda.
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>> > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the
>> take
>> > > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at least
>> > until
>> > > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of ego. I
>> now
>> > > question their judgement And motivation. That’s on you. TEAM politics
>> > isn’t
>> > > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
>> > candidates
>> > > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
>> > >
>> > > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they
>> campaign.
>> > > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of
>> this
>> > > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
>> forward.
>> > >
>> > > EMike, AA8EM
>> > >
>> > > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
>> > > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
>> > > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
>> > > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
>> > > mountain.michelle at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > 
>> > > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in this
>> > > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
>> > > transparent.
>> > > >
>> > > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the only
>> > > restriction we are talking about.
>> > > >
>> > > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
>> access
>> > > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up without
>> the
>> > > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
>> communications
>> > > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature
>> form
>> > > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and you
>> as
>> > a
>> > > member are not allowed to know about.
>> > > >
>> > > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the way
>> you
>> > > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
>> > > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
>> > > >
>> > > > -Michelle W5NYV
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
>> > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
>> > > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past BOoD
>> > > election
>> > > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of the
>> > > Lawyers
>> > > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even be
>> an
>> > > >> argument.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Michelle Wrote:
>> > > >> "Unless, of course, this  Information contained in CJ requests is
>> not
>> > > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it was
>> > > presented
>> > > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This advice
>> was
>> > > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
>> > > products.
>> > > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised
>> strongly
>> > > >> against, would not work to our
>> > > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on the
>> > > wrong
>> > > >> hill.  as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not just
>> > > >> convenient."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements? Without
>> the
>> > > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across as a
>> > > simple
>> > > >> political stunt. Enough already.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in individuals
>> > whom I
>> > > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to
>> keep
>> > > >> amateur radio in space.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> EMike, AA8EM
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
>> > > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
>> > > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
>> > > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
>> > > >> _______________________________________________
>> > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
>> available
>> > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > > Opinions expressed
>> > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
>> views
>> > > of AMSAT-NA.
>> > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > > program!
>> > > >> Subscription settings:
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>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> > Opinions
>> > > expressed
>> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
>> of
>> > > AMSAT-NA.
>> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> > program!
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>> > >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions
>> > expressed
>> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> > AMSAT-NA.
>> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
>> program!
>> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
>> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
>> Opinions expressed
>> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
>> AMSAT-NA.
>> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
>> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>>
>