[amsat-bb] Transparency and Double Standards

Wed Aug 19 22:02:39 UTC 2020

John Brier,

Anyone on the -bb can see right through this John, by simply examining the
submission form from the DDTC themselves.  Anyone on the -bb can register
with the DDTC Right Now and submit the same form for some other request...
and, send me, you and everyone else on the-bb a copy of the forms before,
after, or during the submission.  The DDTC does not require it to be kept a
secret.

And, an attorney was hired... whoopty doo!  Did whoever is working with the
attorney sign over all right, title and interest in the form submission to
the attorney!?  And if-so, do you really trust people that think having to
ask an attorney for permission to handle their own information is a great
idea!?!  Just the thought of being pigeon holed into working with a single
attorney or firm and having to check with them to get a release signed from
them, before releasing information like this, is frightening to me!  It's
not like this is a criminal defense case...  This whole thing is
functionally equivalent to some couple hiring an attorney to help fill out
immigration forms and then some family member comes up to them and asks
"hey can i see how you filled out section X?"... and then, the couple turns
around and says "Oh, no... I have to ask my attorney for a release before I
let you see it".... seriously ?!!?

Why, in all humanity... would you ever give an attorney leverage over your
documents / information ?!?!

She's going to be hard pressed to find anyone else that has publicized
their DDTC submissions.  But this is entirely besides the point and
irrelevant, and YOU ALL KNOW IT.  Most companies have a reason to protect
the development of their (or others) defense articles.  There are no
defense articles or other IP to protect here, as-far-as-we-all-know?!!?!?
Why does an organization focused on transparent open source development of
amateur satellite technology care about protecting this submission to the
DDTC?  That's a more critical question.  Why wasn't the DDTC submission
provided to the -bb community before being sent out?  So we could know what
was being requested and why?

Attach, select file, send already,
Joseph Armbruster
KJ4JIO

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 5:34 PM John Brier via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org>
wrote:

> This is not a double standard or a lack of transparency. Their lawyer
> requested they not release certain information and they are doing as
> requested.
>
> Open source software companies work with security embargos on
> vulnerabilities, and NDAs on prerelease hardware all the time. They keep
> specific things secret for as long as they have to and then open it up as
> soon as they can.
>
> Michelle even said she would double check with the lawyers to see if they
> can release it. She is also looking into whether there are examples of this
> form being published online by other orgs. She is not saying flat out no
> because I have a right to.
>
> 73, John Brier KG4AKV
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 16:21 David Swanson via AMSAT-BB <amsat-bb at amsat.org
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry - but this thread is absolutely hilarious, and the last reply
> by
> > Mr. Perens is the cherry on top of the stupidity cake.
> >
> > Michelle and her comrades have spouted all about transparency and
> openness
> > for the past year, but when they're presented with an opportunity to be
> > transparent and open with their competing organizations they play the
> 'Our
> > Lawyers said not to share card'. When presented with their hypocrisy they
> > retreat to the completely expected position of politicians everywhere by
> > claiming that while AMSAT should make everything open, ORI has a right to
> > keep things secret, because what they're doing is special and different.
> > And then - amazingly - still have the audacity to somehow justify their
> > position by claiming AMSAT isn't launching satellites? Unless I'm
> mistaken,
> > ORI/Perens Inc. have launched precisely *ZERO* birds ever - AMSAT has
> put 4
> > birds in orbit since I've been a member, and has provided parts and
> > guidance to countless 3rd parties to launch their own birds. They have a
> > realistic plan to get more birds into the orbits operators want despite
> not
> > being part of the in-crowd... I have complete faith that they will
> deliver,
> > because they already have. ORI has delivered jack all except promises and
> > chaos.
> >
> > Maybe - just MAYBE - this thread lays bare what the community will be
> > getting with "the slate" of candidates. A whole bunch of "Thee, but not
> for
> > me" type of leadership, and a whole bunch of empty guarantees.
> >
> > -Dave, KG5CCI
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:17 PM Bruce Perens via AMSAT-BB <
> > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry you feel that way. The unfortunate fact is that AMSAT has already
> > > been judged by its outside funding organizations, and is going to have
> a
> > > hard time surmounting that without a major change in leadership. It
> isn't
> > > going to matter much for you to stick with leadership who can't can't
> > build
> > > and launch enough satellites. That is what it is coming to. Fixing that
> > is
> > > the only agenda.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020, 11:18 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
> > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My final word. At least some people on your agendized team, for the
> > take
> > > > over of AMSAT, I hold or have held in high respect. That is, at least
> > > until
> > > > they allowed themselves to be associated with this travesty of ego. I
> > now
> > > > question their judgement And motivation. That’s on you. TEAM politics
> > > isn’t
> > > > what this is about. Character, track record, and how I have seen
> > > candidates
> > > > treat Me and others is how I will vote.
> > > >
> > > > I am highly disappointed that this has turned into a we / they
> > campaign.
> > > > The organization is better than that. Regardless of the outcome of
> this
> > > > election, I judge AMSAT and it reputation will be damaged moving
> > forward.
> > > >
> > > > EMike, AA8EM
> > > >
> > > > EMike McCardel, AA8EM
> > > > Past Senior Editor AMSAT News Service
> > > > Past AMSAT-NA VP Educational Relations
> > > > Former ARRL, Ohio Section, Affiliated Club Coordinator
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 1:11 PM, Michelle Thompson <
> > > > mountain.michelle at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > You might have missed the part where all of the information in this
> > > > particular CJ request is already publicly available. It's already
> > > > transparent.
> > > > >
> > > > > The submitted form itself is not usually published. That's the only
> > > > restriction we are talking about.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is fundamentally different from refusing to allow Directors
> > access
> > > > to corporate records unless they sign NDAs, then showing up without
> the
> > > > actual NDAs, then continuing to deny access to records and
> > communications
> > > > after everyone signed a blank form that purported to be a signature
> > form
> > > > for these alleged NDAs. Some of which have yet to be produced and you
> > as
> > > a
> > > > member are not allowed to know about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your attack is off base and inaccurate. I'm sorry you feel the way
> > you
> > > > do. This work means that things can get dramatically better for the
> > > > organization in highly visible and measurable ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Michelle W5NYV
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:33 AM E.Mike McCardel via AMSAT-BB <
> > > > amsat-bb at amsat.org> wrote:
> > > > >> Just an observation. Among all of this talk, during the past BOoD
> > > > election
> > > > >> cycle, about Transparency, I find it amazing that the excuse of
> the
> > > > Lawyers
> > > > >> or others don't think it wise to disclose information can even be
> an
> > > > >> argument.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Michelle Wrote:
> > > > >> "Unless, of course, this  Information contained in CJ requests is
> > not
> > > > >> usually made public. The law firm would not file it unless it was
> > > > presented
> > > > >> to the State Department as private and confidential. This advice
> was
> > > > >> because virtually all requests are for proprietary programs and
> > > > products.
> > > > >> Sticking out in this regard, by doing something they advised
> > strongly
> > > > >> against, would not work to our
> > > > >> advantage in any way. I want to win for open source, not die on
> the
> > > > wrong
> > > > >> hill.  as an admission that NDA's are indeed important and not
> just
> > > > >> convenient."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Is this not the very essence of Non-Disclosure Agreements? Without
> > the
> > > > >> transparency which seems to be lacking here this comes across as a
> > > > simple
> > > > >> political stunt. Enough already.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am not voting for any TEAM, I'm putting my trust in individuals
> > > whom I
> > > > >> respect and trust and have no agenda other than serving AMSAT to
> > keep
> > > > >> amateur radio in space.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> EMike, AA8EM
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> E. Michael McCardel, AA8EM, former KC8YLD
> > > > >> Former Senior Editor for AMSAT News Service,
> > > > >> Past VP Educational Relations for AMSAT-NA
> > > > >> Former Ohio Section Affiliated Club Coordinator
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> > available
> > > > >> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > > > Opinions expressed
> > > > >> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official
> > views
> > > > of AMSAT-NA.
> > > > >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > > > program!
> > > > >> Subscription settings:
> > > https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum
> available
> > > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > > Opinions
> > > > expressed
> > > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> > of
> > > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > > program!
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> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> > Opinions
> > > expressed
> > > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views
> of
> > > AMSAT-NA.
> > > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> > program!
> > > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> > to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership.
> Opinions
> > expressed
> > are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> > AMSAT-NA.
> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
> program!
> > Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Sent via AMSAT-BB at amsat.org. AMSAT-NA makes this open forum available
> to all interested persons worldwide without requiring membership. Opinions
> expressed
> are solely those of the author, and do not reflect the official views of
> AMSAT-NA.
> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> Subscription settings: https://www.amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
>